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On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 5:47 AM, Ferris McCormick <fmccor@g.o> wrote: |
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> I'm CC-ing gentoo-project on this, because some Council members and |
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> perhaps others seemed to indicate a preference for moving the discussion |
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> there. This response turns out to be much longer than I had intended |
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> because I always try to follow my reasoning to see where it goes, |
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> whether I like the conclusions or not. |
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> |
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> On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 21:54 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote: |
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>> On 12:26 Thu 10 Jul , Ferris McCormick wrote: |
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>> > On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 22:49 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote: |
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>> > 2. But for both devrel and userrel, the Code of Conduct loses almost |
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>> > all its impact unless response is immediate --- CoC's intent, I think, |
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>> > is to help keep the mailing lists and #gentoo-dev channel on track |
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>> > pretty much in real time. I know this was the original idea behind it, |
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>> > and this was one reason we felt we needed people outside devrel to help |
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>> > enforce it (devrel is not set up for immediate responses); |
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>> |
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>> The concepts of poisonous people and repeat offenders are explicitly |
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>> mentioned numerous times in the 20070308 council meeting. Here are some |
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>> examples: |
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>> |
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>> <wolf31o2|mobile> kloeri: banning people from the lists, not |
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>> necessarily... but reducing the requirements on devrel to suspend |
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>> "repeat offenders" might just make them think about their actions before |
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>> doing them, and that could decrease the flames a bit |
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>> |
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>> <kloeri> there's some devs that are persistently poisoning the project |
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>> that I want to deal with but that's not just related to mailinglists |
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>> |
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>> <wolf31o2|mobile> christel: agreed... I think we need to be a bit more |
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>> strict on our developers... after all, in the flames involving users, |
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>> developers are just as much at fault as the users... perhaps if the devs |
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>> didn't respond in kind, the flames would subside much quicker, etc |
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>> |
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>> <kloeri> I don't want to ban anybody but I do want to be much harder on |
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>> devs poisoning things consistently and I'm going to file at least one |
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>> devrel bug in that regard |
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>> |
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>> <kloeri> I don't think we can force people to follow netiquette in |
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>> general but we can do more to smack devs up when they're constantly |
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>> being a pain in the ass |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> On the topic of userrel's power to ban people from lists, which is a |
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>> long-term action: |
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>> |
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>> <robbat2> on the side of devrel not having 'teeth' - kloeri mentioned |
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>> before that infra previously wasn't very responsive to requests to do |
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>> things (he cited a userrel request to remove user from the ML) |
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>> |
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>> <christel> i have a question, if we are to start enforcing etiquette |
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>> policy, i think we may want to ensure we have one which also cover users |
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>> |
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>> > 4. That is, we (devrel, userrel, averyone else perhaps) should use Code |
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>> > of Conduct to stop elaborate flame wars before they can burn out of |
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>> > control. Whether a flame war ever merits a bug will vary from situation |
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>> > to situation, but generally if we have a flame war and wish to impose |
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>> > some sort of sanctions because of it, we really need to be hitting |
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>> > several people or none with warnings or brief "vacations." |
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>> |
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>> I agree that we should attempt to take short-term actions in response to |
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>> immediate offenses. |
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>> |
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>> > 5. I am not sure where the current Code of Conduct document is, but |
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>> > I'll volunteer to help update it to bring it into line with how we wish |
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>> > to use it and to help clarify who has what authority under it, and that |
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>> > sort of thing. I have come to support it, and I'd like to help make it |
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>> > more effectively used in the rather narrow context for which it was |
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>> > designed before we consider extending its reach. |
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>> |
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>> On the topic of trying to write down every possible way to go about |
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>> this, I also agree with them: |
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>> |
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>> <g2boojum> christel: I actually think you want it to be more vague than |
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>> specific. "Don't be a jerk." Please don't define "jerk", or you get a |
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>> five-page treatise on why the bahavior doesn't really fit the |
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>> definition. |
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>> |
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>> <seemant> we really need to be careful in adopting document upon |
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>> document upon document |
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>> |
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> |
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> I note two things. (1) As I read this, no one here is arguing for |
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> anything like a permanent ban; (2) The main thrust in this appears to |
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> address *poisonous developers* except for christel who advocates |
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> including non-developer users as well. And I don't see anything |
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> suggesting that wolf31o2/kloeri/christel/seemant are discussing |
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> permanent action, although I don't have the complete context. |
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> |
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> So, I don't think I have any argument with |
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> wolf31o2/kloeri/christel/seemant here, but I think what you cited |
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> *supports* my view. Let me quote kloeri again, because he seems to be |
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> the strictest among them: |
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> |
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> <kloeri>: there's some devs that are persistently poisoning the |
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> project that I want to deal with but that's not just related to |
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> mailinglists |
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> |
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> <kloeri>: I don't want to ban anybody but I do want to be much harder |
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> on devs poisoning things consistently and I'm going to file at least |
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> one devrel bug in that regard |
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> .... |
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> |
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> In case you are misunderstanding me (well, from you other response I |
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> know you are; I'll try to address that once again below): I don't mind |
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> being more vague than specific (I don't ask for a definition of "Don't |
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> be a jerk", really). My concern goes more to who determines "jerk-ness" |
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> and what we do about it. And it bothers me a lot that a small number of |
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> people believe themselves qualified to make that decision in secret. |
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> Code of Conduct seems to require that the people applying it are |
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> actively working with the "jerks" involved. Even kloeri said he was |
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> opening a bug on some developer for all to see. |
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|
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So to play the other side; if not *rel to determine 'jerk-ness' who would it be? |
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|
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You speak of secrecy where I don't think anyone intends any (well |
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perhaps a few do; but |
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I humbly expect them to not get their way). |
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|
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> |
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> As for seemant's "document on document" --- I agree. But I do insist |
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> that our policy documents reflect what we can do and why. Nothing in |
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> our current documentation that I can see indicates that we should have a |
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> group of people rooting through our archives in order to put together a |
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> case for imposing a permanent ban on someone, and if you are really |
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> suggesting any such thing, *something* needs to be updated in order to |
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> put the community on notice. |
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|
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I find this under the realm of existing abilities of the *rel groups; |
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but feel free to stop talking about it |
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and just update the damn docs if you are concerned; feel free to email |
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the diff to the parties involved. |
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I'm sure if there is a disagreement with wording it can be worked out. |
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|
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> |
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> There's a difference between "document on document" and a real change in |
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> policy/procedure without and document changes at all. |
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> |
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> Please resist the urge to dismiss my description as ad hominum. When I |
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> say "root through the archives" I realize that that is not a neutral |
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> description of what people have in mind. But I think it is completely |
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> accurate. |
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|
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Yes, worst case and all that. |
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|
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> |
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> ==================================================================== |
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> Now, I'm going to change the topic slightly and explain what I think the |
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> context of Jorge's proposals is. I ask him to set me straight if I'm |
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> getting it wrong. |
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> |
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> As I understand it, these proposals fit into the context of the Code of |
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> Conduct, and no matter what you say, I am certain that the Code of |
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> Conduct was put in place to address problems as they occur in order cut |
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> off and prevent brush fires. In this context, his permanent ban |
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> proposals would be the final sanction after quite a long run of working |
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> with someone through the Code of Conduct itself. And I have never seen |
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> anything suggesting nor anyone proposing that the Code of Conduct has a |
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> long reach into the past to apply to someone now. Code of Conduct |
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> addresses current conduct; it does not address past conduct except in |
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> the context of what is going on now. I ask Roy or Jorge please to |
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> correct me on this. |
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> |
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> So, if we were to add Jorge's proposals to the Code of Conduct, they |
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> would fall into that context, and would never come into play at all |
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> unless triggered by some sequence of Code of Conduct violations starting |
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> at the time they were adopted. Personally, I would probably not support |
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> that, but you might be able to talk me around. |
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> |
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> Now, as I have said, I think providing for moderating the -dev mailing |
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> list fits much more neatly into the Code of Conduct, and I had thought |
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> we would have this in place by now (although the push for that seems to |
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> have died --- it's sort of funny that right now I'm the one pushing it). |
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> As I see it, this would give us the option of shunting all posts from |
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> someone to a group of moderators who would either pass the posts or |
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> bounce them with an explanation. We already do this on at least one of |
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> our mailing lists (gentoo-dev-announce?) so it is nothing new and it |
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> works well in the Code of Conduct context. It also solves the problem |
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> of future posts from "poisonous people." |
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|
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Moderating -dev has not died. However our mailing list software needs |
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some features |
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added and neither I nor robbat2 has implemented them yet. |
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|
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> |
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> Donnie suggests elsewhere that moderation is not the answer because the |
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> number of "poisonous people" is small and the group tends to be the |
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> same, but I don't understand the point. All that says is that the list |
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> of people being moderated would be pretty static. To that I answer (1) |
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> So what? Does it matter that the moderators have a static list rather |
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> than a dynamic one? (2) That's invalid anyway because we've never tried |
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> it. We don't know how anyone would react to constant requests to modify |
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> a post. So to reject a solution to a perceived problem because "we know |
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> it won't work" even though it fits nicely into the Code of Conduct and |
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> instead put in place a policy of pre-emptively banning so-called trouble |
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> makers strikes me as ill-conceived and premature. |
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> |
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> Oh, yes. I'm going to stand by my statement that imposing permanent |
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> bans in secret without involving the parties involved is cowardly. If |
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> we are willing to take such extreme measures against people, we should |
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> be willing to face them to discuss the problems and to negotiate less |
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> extreme alternatives. It's easy to write an email to someone saying |
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> "You're banned from all things Gentoo"; it's somewhat harder to talk to |
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> that person about it. |
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|
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You imply that no one will talk to the bannee about his/her problems |
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and I believe |
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that to be wholly false. |
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|
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> |
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> I'm also going to stand by my statements that the intent behind the Code |
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> of Conduct has always been to provide a way to react quickly to problems |
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> as they unfold. This is not explicit in the Code of Conduct, but I |
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> think it is a fair inference from the discussions leading up to it. I |
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> ask Roy or Jorge to correct me if I am wrong. Or we could just ask |
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> Christel; she wrote it and she knows what she had in mind. (Actually, I |
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> guess I'll ask Christel if no one else does.) |
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|
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The Code of Conduct was to stop people from being dicks and to spell out what |
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we as the community expect out of our members. I don't think your |
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statements are correct. |
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|
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> |
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> Regards, |
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> Ferris |
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> -- |
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> Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@g.o> |
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> Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) |
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> |
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-- |
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