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On Tue, 2004-01-20 at 18:53, Brandon Hale wrote: |
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> Installalling a desktop is a major part of the use experience between distributions. Having a GUI installer is what I see to the the most requested feature from our users, who imo should have a large drive in our development. |
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Yeah and the Gentoo installation is quite smooth. You don't spiff up |
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hours of compiling much with cool spinning sandbox mouse cursors. It's a |
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one time thing. The experience comes from using Gentoo mostly, not |
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installing it (most users enjoy the 'hands on' nature of Gentoo |
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installation anyway). |
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And no, as I've said several times, I'm not against an installer for who |
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cares about it, I'm concerned this project is too high profile for this |
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team at this time and outside of its scope. |
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> Also, I simply asked for desktop research to discuss this topic at the meeting, |
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> they chose it as a topic for further review without me present. I asked it to |
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> be clear that I was not aiming for the actual coding of the installer as an immediate atainable goal, this has happened and failed several times already. |
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Well, it got stated more like a necessity thing, everything else being |
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of secondary nature and that coming from someone formerly not even a |
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member of the research team to my knowledge. Why the sudden interest to |
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influence what D&R should be doing ? You must understand that you do |
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have an automatic greater influence as chosen DTL lead and should be |
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careful not to mold projects to your own needs instead of letting them |
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evolve. |
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> What I asked is for this excellent research team |
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Isn't it a bit preliminary using such superlatives without any |
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achievements to show for it? |
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> to draw up clear expectations for the installer, what we want it to do, and create a roadmap for realistic completion. This will allow us to find the skilled resources needed to reach milestones, rather than isolated developers w/ their own incompatible visions of the installer. |
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A good plan gets made by the skilled developers, you don't attract them |
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with it. So the first step is to get the developers lined up and what i |
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see in the logs that was sort of a problem to start with. |
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> I believe this matches the creed of the group, in fact. Create realistic plans for a project, an idea of how it could be done, and detail this completely in a new GLEP. This is simply a first step in a Gentoo-wide installer project. |
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Again, i don't say there shouldn't be an installer or something, it's |
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the overemphasis that is given to it at this time. Here we have a new |
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project : "let's go do something" "yeah i know something let's do this |
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cool thing an installer" "so many have tried and failed and we will |
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accomplish all" "all these other projects are of inferior nature, let's |
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work on this till we drop". |
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Why don't we pick up a few simple achievable projects to start with, it |
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may not be as earth shattering but at least shows what the team can do. |
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Later on when the team has worked together, got it's act up (we're all |
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experimenting here) we can take a look at bigger projects. |
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> WRT the menu system: |
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> I believe this is also a very good initiative, |
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Well, it would be hard to deny that. |
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> and its scope and goals have already been sufficiently laid out. |
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Pretty much. |
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> There is little "research" left to be done here, what is needed is approval and implementation. |
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Have you even read the GLEP ? There's little research done. It all stays |
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on the level 'this would be nice and we could probably do it like that', |
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but it doesn't get much further than that (no offence to the writer). It |
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would be ideal to see what exactly was needed in terms of resources, |
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changes in the tree, upstream support, etc. This could be done mostly |
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without any coding. This GLEP can be enormously improved trough |
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research. |
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Anyway, I'm merely giving at as a possible reasonably achievable goal |
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with direct benefits for the desktop. It's just a fact that there's too |
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little resources to do this with one or two devs, it should be done by |
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the desktop as a whole. In terms used earlier, it's a way to define how |
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desktop research, DTL and all it's subprojects should interact to get a |
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project done. And no i don't think a UI installer will be able to have |
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this pilot function in a reasonable time frame. |
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> Spyderous and myself will be reviewing this GLEP soon, and I am fairly confident that it will be approved and we will push for *optional* implementation in various desktop projects. |
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It's a GLEP, it's not a D&R project at this time. That means it's not |
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really up to you. Anyway, as DTL leads you shouldn't be reviewing and |
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implied veto-ing this, you should be discussing this with all the |
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relevant subprojects, give feedback, hand out possible tasks to |
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subprojects and work from there. The DTL leads role in the management |
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would be to support the GLEP in the management to get approval (although |
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i think in this case that won't be a problem). DTL is a mediator, not a |
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legislator. |
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And then there's the issue (again have you read the GLEP ?) that it is |
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not optional. We either do it or we don't. And it can only be done (read |
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: approved by management) when what there is going to be is assumable |
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better than what is. |
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Anyway concerning this GLEP, we either hop on the bandwagon now and are |
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early adopters of the technology (which sounds like the Gentoo i know - |
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oh i hate myself for using such reasoning ;)-), can prove Gentoo to be a |
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'bleeding-edge' distro once again and help upstream developers getting |
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this integrated as well or we hang on and eventually get there anyway. |
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That's possible too. But this is how the desktop menu wise is going to |
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be, that's not much of a question to me (nor should it be to you ?). |
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- foser |
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-- |
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