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Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@×××××××××××××.uk> posted |
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20071221135922.3781ecdd@×××××××××××××.uk, excerpted below, on Fri, 21 Dec |
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2007 13:59:22 +0000: |
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|
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> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:43:43 -0500 |
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> Richard Freeman <rich@××××××××××××××.net> wrote: |
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>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote: |
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>> > Please don't comment any further until you understand how this whole |
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>> > thing works. |
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>> |
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>> I think this is a bit of an unrealistic expectation. This change |
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>> impacts EVERYBODY - devs, users, etc. |
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|
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> What. It's a small change that's only visible to developers and power |
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> users. |
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|
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But it affects all developers (and power users) in the routine way they |
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do their job, dealing with ebuilds (or ebuilds plus whatever, if this |
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GLEP goes thru). As such, it's a "big" change, because it affects how a |
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lot of people do their routine work. |
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|
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Yes, that's quibbling over semantics and viewpoint, but it's obvious |
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/some/ people consider it a big change, big enough for them to make a big |
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deal about, anyway, which is what matters in terms of discussion and |
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ultimate acception/rejection of the GLEP. |
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|
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>> Makes a low-level detail more visible to users. |
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> |
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> Users don't see .ebuild files. |
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|
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"Gentoo users", as often used in the context of this list (from my |
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observation), do. "Gentoo users" are, as used here, "Gentoo system |
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sysadmins" by another name. As such, they've always been expected to be |
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at what the general IT world would consider at minimum "power user", |
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certainly not the "luser" that's the general IT world's usage of "user". |
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By definition, "Gentoo users" are expected to be able to RTFM, and |
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expected to actually /enjoy/ the extra control of being able to mess with |
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ebuild files and the like. Otherwise, why are they using Gentoo at all, |
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when it's targeted at that "power user", and there are other |
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distributions out there directly targeted at the "(l)user" level? |
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|
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So, "users", as used on this list, *do* see ebuild files, or at minimum, |
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cannot be reasonably said *not* to see them, since many of them in fact |
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do see them and make use of them, in overlays and the like. |
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|
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As for the generally IT world usage of the term, (l)user, that doesn't |
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come up so often here, because it's not what we deal with. Dealing with |
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them would be the job of /our/ users -- Gentoo sysadmins by another name. |
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|
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>> You can't make a wild change to how EAPIs are specified - since old PMs |
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>> will expect it to be in the filename in a particular format. |
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> |
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> You can make entirely arbitrary changes to EAPIs with suffixes, provided |
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> only that you don't use either .ebuild or .ebuild-(any-existing-eapi). |
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|
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OK, first, a comment on the GLEP itself: I just looked at it again, and |
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realized it doesn't actually /specify/ the name format in so many words |
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or in commonly accepted syntax form. One can see what's expected based |
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on the /examples/, but it's not specified... anywhere that I could see. |
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|
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So the GLEP needs something like the below (may not be technically |
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correct, but as an example to be corrected as necessary when added to the |
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GLEP) syntax specified: |
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|
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<PF>.ebuild[-<suffix>] |
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|
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IMO that's the key to beginning to clear up my (I think former) |
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confusion. Without that clearly stated, I was conflating the two |
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possible changes, the one given by the GLEP, and the one left unspec-ed, |
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and thus reserved for the future and/or other non-Gentoo usage, |
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extensions /other/ than .ebuild[-<suffix>]. |
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|
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Given the conflation, I was then left confused by the GLEP requirement |
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that the EAPI not be changed from that found in the filename (with the |
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filename EAPI defaulting to 0 if not given), set against the argument |
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that EAPI could then at some point be made dynamic, or otherwise less |
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firmly specified than filename semantics requires. Separating the |
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concepts, then, clears up the confusion, since the possibility is left |
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open to change to something /other/ than .ebuild[-<suffix], say fbuild, |
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in the future (or for other than main Gentoo tree) as necessary, and the |
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new (fbuild or whatever) format would be free to break all the current |
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rules associated with .ebuild[-<suffix>] as deemed necessary. |
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|
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So now I see how you could state they must remain the same (in the glep) |
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yet allow for dynamically setting them ("post-source") in future non- |
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ebuild* formats. |
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|
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Further suggestion for the GLEP, then: In addition to specifying syntax |
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explicitly, note explicitly as well, that this glep deals with .ebuild* |
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only, and that one possible mechanism for future incompatible changes |
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would therefore be to change the extension to something other |
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than .ebuild*. |
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|
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This should eliminate an entire class of objections (and simple |
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confusion), including my main previous one, due to the present less than |
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clear specification and the confusion it caused. |
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|
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(/NOW/ I see...! =8^) |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |
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|
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-- |
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