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On 07/08/2016 04:50 PM, Alec Warner wrote: |
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> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Philip Webb <purslow@××××××××.net |
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> <mailto:purslow@××××××××.net>> wrote: |
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> |
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> 160708 William Hubbs wrote: |
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> > On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 05:56:04PM +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote: |
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> >> IMO the criteria should be whether they work or not, |
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> >> not whether upstream is more or less active. |
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> >> If they're blockers on other work, by all means cull them. |
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> >> However, if the biggest problem with them is |
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> >> that they're using a few inodes in the repo, they should |
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> probably stay. |
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> > There is an overlay for packages that are removed from the |
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> official tree |
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> > -- https://github.com/gentoo/graveyard -- |
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> > and that is where old software should go, |
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> > if it doesn't have an active maintainer. |
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> |
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> A lot of this lengthy discussion is missing some basic points, |
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> though a few people have mentioned them in passing. |
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> As someone who has used Gentoo exclusively since 2003 |
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> & who raised the objections to removal of Xcdroast + Nethack, |
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> let me try to get you all to focus on the real-life issues. |
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> |
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> (1) The fact that a pkg has little or no upstream support |
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> or that it doesn't have an active Gentoo maintainer |
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> is not a reason for removing it from the regular tree. |
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+1 |
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|
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> |
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> So basically what you are advocating for is: |
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> "Having completely unmaintained packages in the tree is OK." |
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> And honestly, I do not buy that premise. |
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|
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I think what Phillip has outlined is that different use cases have |
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different prospective on use, stability and security. Take the ancient |
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serial (rs232-C) code based net-dialup/minicom for example. It has long |
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outlived it's usefulness for most users. Serial ports that have TCP/IP |
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laid on top of them use to form the backbone of phone line modem access. |
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|
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"Upstream: None specified" |
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|
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Yet it is still extraordinarily useful to embedded systems work, and |
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industrial uses, such as modbusTCP/ppp/rs232. To a "go hacker" it needs |
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to be cleaned out, but to an older or embedded hacker it is fundamental |
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to raw hardware access. Granted the "Maintainer: embedded@g.o |
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(Embedded Gentoo)" has stepped up. So, my point is there are (probably) |
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lots of other example codes in the 1500 unmaintained packages that have |
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not yet been scrutinized by the larger gentoo user community. I've got |
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over a dozen deprecated packages in my /usr/local/portage/ tree, as I |
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try to keep up with the tree cleaners on old useful codes. |
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|
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"no maintainer" should not be part of the criteria for removal, at least |
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not for a year or so. WE need to document the methods and procedures for |
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proxy-maint, to a robust level, before such actions are warranted. Then |
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a campaign to recruit proxy maintainers for a while. |
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Right now the devManual, quizzes, repo structures(github, sunrise etc), |
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eapi, and many other aspects of gentoo are in a phase of rapid change. |
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It's going to take a while to get things stabilized and documented and |
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then a period of recruitment. I know, I for one have been on this path |
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and things are time consuming. Just look at the dev-wrangling over many |
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of these issues. That is the reason we have 1500 orphaned packages. |
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|
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For now, I suggest we just label these packages as deficient, |
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no-maintainer, security, inactive-upstream and any other relevant |
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statuses. While some parse the proxy-maint correspondences to first |
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create FAQs and then a guide, with some basic examples. Then aggressive |
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removal would be viable and community supported. |
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|
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This effort would also bode well for corporations to train and maintain |
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their linux sources with lots of folks participating in a full-spectrum |
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structure, that these discussions illuminate, should we want to attract |
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new and younger hackers to gentoo. A well defined proxy-maint program |
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would do more for gentoo recruiting (of both devs and users) than most |
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any thing else, imho. Teach a user how to create and maintain their own |
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code, and you'll have a user for life. |
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|
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|
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> One basic reason some software is no longer being actively developed |
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> is simply that they work perfectly well as they now are, |
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> eg the file manager Krusader & the desktop manager Fluxbox : |
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> both of these are very useful & have no drop-in replacements, |
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> but very little development has occurred for several years. |
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> The same is true of Xcdroast & Nethack, which have been threatened, |
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> but which have been rescued after some small patches have been applied. |
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> This is likely to be true of more + more pkgs, as time passes : |
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> even changes in the kernel these days rarely affect desktop users. |
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|
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!1. |
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> |
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> No one is trying to remove flubox (which had a release in 2015 and had |
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> activity in its git repo as recently as last week.) |
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> |
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> Xcdroast for example, hasn't had a release in 8 years and I can't even |
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> find its source tracker in sourceforge. These are the sorts of packages |
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> that I think are not great to have in the tree and for Xcdroast, if I |
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> were treecleaner lead i would probably advocate for working around the |
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> security bug (dropped SUID) instead of removal. I do not necessarily |
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> want to remove software that people are using. |
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> |
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> That being said, I do not want unmaintained software in the tree either. |
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Funny, I used xcdroast to burn a couple of systemrescue images, just |
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yesterday, and I never used it before yesterday. |
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> (2) There are 3 basic categories of Gentoo user : |
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> (a) server-farm managers, (b) multi-user sysadmins, (c) single-users. |
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> Each of these have different security concerns : |
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> (a) need to be alert to the many threats from all over the Internet ; |
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> (b) need (among other things) to prevent privilege escalation ; |
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> (c) are largely immune to those types of threat, |
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> though a few of the Internet variety can affect them. |
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|
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great perspective. I'd add a forth category of user. |
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Embedded/close-network users of gentoo. For products, you do not need to |
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use the internet, until the very end of product development or product |
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testing. |
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Old codes really shine in this forth category, and gentoo is definitely |
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one of the champions in this stand-alone space. We are the only major |
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distro to support both systemd and legacy init. It's not clear how many |
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embedded projects will even use systemd. (think new arm boards that we |
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all are anticipating). |
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> I appreciate the argument you are trying to make; but i do not think it |
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> really drives Gentoo Security Policy (nor should it.) |
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Basically the current gentoo security policy is a "greedy algorithm" |
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that too aggressively makes too many mistakes (on what to remove) by |
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a limited scope of how linux is used in the wider world. Not every linux |
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system is a multi-user internet connected risk. Granted Rf interfaces |
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may change that, but most responsible designers have a way to 'turn |
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down' RF interfaces. Surely a hacker can identify the single trace that |
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is the antennae connection and ground it out, should the manufacture not |
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provide a software switch. That is a vendor choice of Rf turndown is a |
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problem in the new IoT family of products, but you can blame the NSA for |
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that sort of crap. Sot if a system is not connect to the outside world, |
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99% of the security risks disappear. |
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|
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Please stop assuming the worst case environment that a code is used |
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for. If you want that, then create a tree within a tree, such as what |
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the good folks of the 'hardened' project do. Work to assist them to add |
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codes to the musl platform, rather that working the fringes of the |
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existing (rich) portage tree. |
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If you did that, then we could all (easily) routinely secure our |
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connections to the internet, and keep other projects alive that do not |
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need a 'security onion' [1] level of security. Perhaps the security team |
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needs to mimic the security onion project, but build everything on |
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hardened gentoo? That effort would do vastly more to secure gentoo |
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users, than fuzzing codes, one at time. We have Pentoo for penetration, |
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but where is the equivalent for defense? |
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[1] https://securityonion.net/ |
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> As my security manager used to say "security is not a race to the bottom." |
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Anecdotal limericks are mostly useless in real security. Real security, |
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starts at the overall schema. Where was the security project on the |
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recent malaise of check sums not matching for minimal iso? It appears to |
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many that the security team, needs to be "refocused" and more amenable |
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to valid suggestions and a new set of priorities, imho. ymmv. |
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> The security objections raised against Xcdroast + Nethack |
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> were both problems which would arise only on multi-user systems, |
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> yet single-users were also to be deprived of access to them. |
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> Perhaps part of the problem is that many Gentoo developers |
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> also earn their livings as sysadmins with many users or many servers : |
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> the simpler happier world of single-users escapes their attention. |
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Excellent point! |
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> (3) Users generally don't want to be developers : they're too busy |
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> or too old. |
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> Asking them "Are you willing to maintain it yourself ?" is a silly |
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> excuse ; |
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> offering them the chance to dig around in a graveyard is even worse ; |
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> even maintaining an overlay is a nuisance : I tried it with KDE Sunset. |
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> Neither Xcdroast nor Nethack belong in a graveyard of any kind : |
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> once the obscure security problems have been fixed, |
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> they belong in the regular tree marked 'stable', |
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> like many other pkgs whose development has been completed. |
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|
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Any effort to separate packages from the tree, should *first* be meet |
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with a robust way to maintain and retrieve those codes. Destruction of a |
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rich legacy of codes, many simple and tightly focus, robs gentoo or |
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a very rich part of it's heritage, needlessly. |
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> Users all do -- or should -- appreciate the unpaid work of the |
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> developers, |
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> but developers also need to realise that without non-developer users |
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> Gentoo would very quickly die & their justified pride + satisfaction |
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> die too. |
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> |
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> |
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> I'm a bit confused by this argument. |
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> |
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> 1) It appears that no Gentoo developers want to maintain a software package. |
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(um, you missed the keyword that is missing, "currently") |
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> 2) The software package has no active upstream. |
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One fork fixes the no active upstream. |
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> 3) The software has no bugs. |
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> 4) We mask the software because it has bugs and no active maintianer, |
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> for years. |
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The word "bugs" means many things to different folks. It's a |
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full-spectrum word that you use as an inaccurate 'monolithic' metric. |
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> 5) No one volunteers to proxy-maintain the software. |
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This is because of numerous, aforementioned changes, including but not |
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limited to the roll out of github, and the lack of sufficient mechanisms |
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for package retrieval, compared to what we had with the attic. If there |
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is a robust method via git(hub), then just document those methods, |
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because git is not an intuitively obvious collect of methodologies to |
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replace what we had. That and the aggressive tree cleansing is unfair to |
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the wider user communities, many of which only drop in occasionally. |
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> |
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> But you advocate we keep such software in the tree, because users are |
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> "too busy" or "too old" to maintain it themselves? |
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Not a consensus viewpoint but anecdotal, see above comments. |
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> (4) I have 3 simple recommendations to fix the everyday problems. |
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> |
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> (a) the justification for tree-cleaning should be explicitly |
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> that a pkg either (i) won't compile, (ii) crashes when run |
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> or (iii) has a serious security hole which affects all 3 types of |
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> user. |
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> |
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> |
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> (b) there needs to be a developer role 'General Maintainer', |
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> who should be available to look at pkgs which have no regular |
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> maintainer, |
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> but which compile, run properly & are generally secure : |
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> their job would be to step in, like Mr Savchenko -- thanks again -- , |
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> to fix small problems which would otherwise be neglected ; |
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> less formally, all developers might see it as part of their role |
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> to help out occasionally with such small problems. |
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Good points (+1). It takes time to grow up a proxy team. It takes time |
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to develop documents that are github eapi 6/7 centric and a |
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proxy-dev-guide. It takes time, so stop the aggressive tree pruning, in |
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the absence of a fully functional, well documented system like the attic |
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that is user friendly to learn and use. |
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> In an ideal world, the tree would be full of properly maintained packages. |
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Yes we agree on this, but, the security and tree-cleaners are being too |
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aggressive as the proxy workflow is new and still not fully functional |
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atm. Once this is fixed, it going to take a while (6 months to a year). |
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How long did the github migration planning and execution take? |
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> There are over 1500 packages in the tree in the 'maintainer-needed' |
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> state[1]. |
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So what? Dont use them (gentoo is about choice right?). Modify a |
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existing, common portage tool (eix?) to label your issues with these codes. |
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> Even if we allocated 100 packages per developer, this "General |
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> Maintainer" team would be 15 developers strong and one of the largest |
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> projects in Gentoo. To compare the Treecleaner project is 7 people; the |
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> Security project is 10 people. |
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How about a refocus on a security onion, gentoo centric, for the |
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security team. Many of us would appreciate that sort of security much |
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more than removal of old packages. |
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> This is in fact part of the rationale of the Treecleaner project itself. |
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> Ebuilds require maintenance (eclass updates, new EAPIs, etc) and someone |
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> has to do this work (or we end up with 6 supports EAPIs in the tree.) |
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> This is one reason why packages that are unmaintained are removed; we do |
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> not have 15 spare humans to clean up the unmaintained packages, so we |
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> remove them when it is feasible to do so. |
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Correct. What you are not fairly considering is the rapid changes and |
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your time allowances for the user community to adapt to all of these |
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changes. Are we nixos or gentoo? At least nixos has documentation [2]. |
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[2] https://nixos.org/wiki/Development_Environments |
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On Gentoo's proxy project, there is scant documentation on a myriad of |
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core issues. The proxy-maint ML is still not functioning for user |
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questions and FAQ parsing. |
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> (c) Gentoo's rules + policies need explicitly to reflect the fact |
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> that there are 3 types of user, as described : |
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> eg some pkgs might be marked as 'not safe for multi-user systems' ; |
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> that would recognise real distinctions which are now being ignored. |
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> |
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> HTH & thanks as always to all of you for making Gentoo work since 2003. |
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Likewise. I appreciated the devs and the gentoo distro, immensely. But, |
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we need a well documented pathway from start to finish on the |
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proxy-maint (regardless of what the details are) before such radical |
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pruning, and that includes robust archiving of what is necessary to |
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personally restore old packages. Use the old attic as your basis of |
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reasonable functionality. |
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James |
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> [1] https://qa-reports.gentoo.org/output/maintainer-needed.html |
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> |
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> |
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> -- |
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> ========================,,============================================ |
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> SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb |
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> ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto |
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> TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca |
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> |
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> |
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> |