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On 19-06-2010 17:40, Richard Freeman wrote: |
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> On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: |
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>> On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: |
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>>> #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. |
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>>> The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in |
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>>> a sense of "tone doesn't matter". |
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>> |
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>> you've failed to notice an important point that others have already |
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>> tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra |
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>> team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it |
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>> is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer. |
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> |
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> Perhaps he didn't fail to notice this point, but rather he just |
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> disagrees with it? |
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> |
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> The fact is that #gentoo-infra is part of the Gentoo linux distribution. |
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> It belongs to every Gentoo developer, or at least legally to every |
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> Gentoo foundation member. Conduct on this channel reflects on all |
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> Gentoo developers. |
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|
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Richard, |
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|
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that channel is as much part of the Gentoo Linux distribution as |
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#gentoo-kde, #gentoo-elections, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-forums and many |
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others, including private channels for some teams. |
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I can assure you that if someone goes to #gentoo-forums and tries to |
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tell the forums team what tone should be used in that channel, we'll |
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kindly ask the person to stop or to leave. This is one of the "public" |
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and exposed channels and thus we have a tone with that in mind, but |
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we're not going to set our tone according to the demands of a developer |
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that is not even part of the team. I can convey similar statements about |
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#gentoo-userrel, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-elections and many others. I've |
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picked these particular channels as I'm member of these teams, have been |
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for a while, and these are public channels that try to keep an inviting |
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tone as they are very exposed to the community. |
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If someone tried to go to the old userrel private channel and tell the |
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people in the team how to behave in their "backyard", they would likely |
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get a similar response to that used in #gentoo-infra. What would grant |
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any non-member of a team the right to demand how the members of the team |
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should act amongst themselves in their private room? |
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|
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About the "legal right", that isn't true. There are a few misconceptions |
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in your statement. Even though the Foundation is the body which holds |
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the Gentoo brand, trademarks and logo, it's not the Foundation that sets |
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the rules for joining and be part of the Gentoo Developers Community. |
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Furthermore, being a Gentoo developer doesn't mean you can join any team |
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you want or that you have a "right" to go to any #gentoo-* channel. In |
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case you have any doubt, I can give you a list of quite a few channels |
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most developers don't have access to. |
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If you insist, to address the question that access lists for #gentoo-* |
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channels can be set by Freenode (our main IRC network), you should know |
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that the only people Freenode will listen to regarding that are the |
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members of the Freenode Gentoo Group Contacts. The people in that group |
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were not chosen by the Foundation nor do they respond to it. |
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Also, please never forget that being part of Gentoo is a "privilege" and |
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not a "right". |
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|
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> It really does bother me that everybody is lining up to defend this kind |
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> of behavior. If the response had been - sorry, I guess the joking got |
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> out of hand I'd say, ok, well, let's try to do better but let's all move |
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> on. I don't see offensive behavior using Gentoo IDs/IRC Cloaks/media as |
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> a trivial matter. It sets the overall tone of the distro, which is what |
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> this thread is all about. |
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|
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I'm not defending "your-mom jokes" nor a "harsh tone" in Gentoo. I'm |
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trying to explain the difference between joking amongst friends on your |
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house and making insulting comments directed towards individual members |
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or a global community in the public. |
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The #gentoo channel has had a long time policy of clean language as it |
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can be and is used by children and it's one of the channels (the one?) |
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with greater exposure to the community. Many of the comments and jokes |
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that are common practice and perfectly reasonable on #gentoo-dev would |
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likely get you a warning in #gentoo. Some #gentoo-* channels impose some |
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restrictions about valid topics for that channel. The #gentoo-ops |
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channel topic is "Discussion of #gentoo issues". The #gentoo-kde channel |
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doesn't want PM discussions. So the appropriate tone for each channel |
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depends of its environment. |
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|
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> I've heard several devs over the years comment that they love |
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> contributing to Gentoo, but they'd never put it on their resume. Who |
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> can blame them? I know that if I ever were hiring somebody and they |
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> pointed out that they were a Gentoo dev, I'd tend to assume that their |
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> technical knowledge was pretty good but you can be assured I'd do quite |
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> a bit of digging around to figure out if they're somebody I'd want |
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> working on my team. |
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|
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Well, this is an option of every Gentoo developer. It's up to each |
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member of the community to decide whether they want to publicize their |
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participation in Gentoo or not. To be more precise, it's the option of |
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every member of every community to decide that. |
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In my humble opinion, that decision reveals much about the person and |
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can help explain how one behaves in the Gentoo community. So if that |
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helps you or someone else make your opinion about this particular Gentoo |
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developer, you should know I do publicize that I'm a member of this |
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community and I feel no shame in being part of it. |
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|
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> I don't think that most Gentoo devs behave in this way. I think a lot |
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> of people care about trying to fix this. I don't think it is asking too |
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> much for Gentoo devs to try to keep their behavior reasonably |
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> professional when using Gentoo media, or Gentoo emails/cloaks/etc. |
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|
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No, it's not too much to ask and I agree we should all try to keep our |
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best behaviour - in particular in public. But none of us has any right |
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demanding that in private mediums. |
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As an example, even though I use my gentoo cloak online, you don't have |
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any right to impose a behaviour into me in my private channel. |
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|
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> No need to start burning people at the stake for slip-ups, but let's at |
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> least try to agree that we'd like to be associated with a somewhat |
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> professional-acting distribution? |
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> |
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> Rich |
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|
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We have a loosely-knit community that is able to provide a reasonable |
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product "Gentoo Linux". Let's try to avoid killing it by wanting to |
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impose a certain "mentality" or "behaviour" into others and let's try to |
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respect each other and learn to live in a community. |
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|
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|
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- -- |
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Regards, |
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|
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Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org |
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Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections |
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