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On Wednesday, December 19, 2012 09:13:28 AM Greg KH wrote: |
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> On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 08:21:36AM +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote: |
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> > On Mon, December 17, 2012 22:31, Greg KH wrote: |
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> > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 09:03:40PM +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote: |
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> > >> Olav Vitters <olav@×××××××.nl> wrote: |
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> > >> >On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 09:29:26AM -0500, Richard Yao wrote: |
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> > >> >> As I said in an earlier email, Lennart Poettering claims that it |
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> > >> >> does |
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> > >> >> not work. We are discussing some of the things necessary to make it |
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> > >> > |
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> > >> >work. |
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> > >> > |
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> > >> >Just to repeat: |
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> > >> >In this thread it was claimed that a separate /usr is not supported by |
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> > >> >systemd/udev. |
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> > >> > |
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> > >> >A case which works with latest systemd on various distributions. I |
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> > >> >checked with upstream (not Lennart), and they confirmed it works. I |
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> > >> >can |
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> > >> >wait for Lennart to say the same, but really not needed. |
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> > >> > |
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> > >> >I assume this will again turn into a "but I meant something else". |
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> > >> |
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> > >> Olav. |
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> > >> |
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> > >> Lennart has stated that he considers a seperate /usr without init* |
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> > >> broken. |
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> > > |
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> > > Yes, as do I, and so do a lot of other developers. |
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> > |
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> > It is only "broken", because upstream decided to move everything into /usr |
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> > that was previously in /. |
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> |
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> No, not at all, please see the web page that describes, in detail, the |
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> problems that has been going on for quite some time now, with the /usr |
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> and / partitions and packages. |
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> http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken |
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> |
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> One good solution to this issue is to move everything into /usr, and |
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> that's something that has wonderful benifits in the long run, and is |
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> something that I expect all Linux distros to eventually implement. |
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> Those that don't, will suffer because of it. |
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> |
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> Again, see the web page for why moving stuff into /usr is a good idea |
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> for the reasons behind this. |
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> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge |
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|
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Example: /usr Network Share |
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When /usr is on a network share, why not add a / on network as well? |
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I have multiple systems and as they all have different uses, they all have |
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different software installed. |
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|
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Example: Multiple Guest Operating Systems on the Same Host |
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See answer to previous example. |
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|
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How many environments actually currently exist where a shared /usr is being |
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used? |
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|
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> > >> This has worked correctly in the past. |
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> > > |
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> > > Define "past" please. |
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> > |
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> > Recent past, like a few months ago no errors during boot and the system |
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> > running stable. |
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> |
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> You have gotten lucky, see the above links for why. |
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|
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ALSA, LVM and HPLIP work perfectly with /usr on LVM without an initramfs. |
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I have sound, the LVM partitions are detected and mounted correctly and I can |
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use the full functionality of any HP printer I get access to. |
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Those three are listed as being broken. |
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|
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> > Please provide a simple way to let me see that it is broken on systems |
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> > that do not use bluetooth keyboards. |
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> |
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> Again, see the above link for how to do this. |
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|
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See above, 3 items that I use daily (apart from hplip, don't need printing and |
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scanner daily) are listed as broken, but work without error. |
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In what way should they be broken and how can I find out? |
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|
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> > The requirement of having userspace working to have input devices working |
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> > seems to be related to bluetooth, not to USB or PS/2 keyboards. |
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> |
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> Not at all, see the above link. |
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|
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Ok, a few other devices are mentioned, the only one I need to mount /usr in |
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that list is LVM, which starts correctly already. |
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|
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> > And using a bluetooth connection to access a NFS share is, in my humble |
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> > opinion, a corner case that requires additional work to make it work. |
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> |
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> One person's "corner case" is another person's default operating mode. |
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|
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Yes, but the "corner case" I just mentioned is one that won't work without a |
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init*. My use-case has been stable for years. |
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> > > Note, it's still broken, I have yet to see any upstream fixes to resolve |
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> > > all of the issues that are involved here with "fixing" this up. |
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> > |
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> > Reverting back to an older version makes it work. |
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> |
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> Because of how we package udev? |
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|
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If it's packaging, then why are we having this discussion and do we need a |
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fork to fix udev? |
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|
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> > Using "mdev" also works. |
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> |
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> mdev is not recommended for desktop or server systems, but feel free to |
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> use it if you want. |
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|
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I might not be recommended, but it does proof that a seperate /usr is not |
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broken. The way udev doesn't handle it is. |
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> > > Yes, as always, for some subset of users, you can be lucky and it will |
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> > > work for them, but those systems are getting rarer and rarer these days, |
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> > > as the rest of upstream (not systemd here) are moving on and not doing |
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> > > anything to change their behavior for this topic. |
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> > |
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> > Why rarer? Any system I can buy in a random shop will work using a |
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> > seperate /usr, provided the software is installed sanely. |
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> |
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> Again, see above for why this is not true. |
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Only because udev-upstream declares such systems broken. |
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> > By moving everything into /usr, this brokenness is forced upon users. |
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> |
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> Not at all, but that's a separate topic than what we are talking about |
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> here. |
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|
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True, but that move is done by the same individual(s). (Based on the name at |
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the bottom of both those pages you referenced) |
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> > >> The direction udev development is going, according to Lennart, is to |
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> > >> make that impossible and he refuses to fix this regression. |
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> > > |
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> > > Again, this has NOTHING to do with udev or systemd, as has been pointed |
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> > > out numerous times. I understand your _wish_ that it would have |
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> > > something to do with it, but that will not change the facts, sorry. |
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> > |
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> > Then what does it have to do with? |
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> > When it was made public that it is considered "broken", the news came from |
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> > udev-upstream. This was before most systems encountered any breakage. |
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> |
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> That is because things were failing silently for some people, and not so |
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> silently for others. Now udev warns about this type of situation, |
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> shooting the messenger is usually a bad idea. |
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|
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Not planning to shoot the messenger. |
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But when upstream takes the easy way out by declaring seperate /usr broken |
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when that has been working correctly for years and then forcing additional |
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parts onto peoples systems that they do not need or want will not be accepted |
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with a smile. |
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|
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> > >> I am really happy with this project and intend on testing it once |
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> > >> requests for this appear in the eudev mailing list. |
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> > > |
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> > > Good luck, the root problems still remain, and nothing that eudev ever |
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> > > does can resolve that, sorry. |
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> > > |
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> > > Can this topic finally be put to rest please? There is a whole web page |
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> > > devoted to this topic, why do people blindly ignore it? |
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> > |
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> > Where is this page? |
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> > I've read the page written by Lennart. Is there a decent (as in, going |
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> > into detail why it is broken and what it is caused by) analysis about the |
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> > "problem"? |
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> |
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> See above for the links and the details. |
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|
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Those I already read before. |
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These show the following timeline: |
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1) Lets move everything into /usr |
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2) Wait, with everything in /usr, we can't mount /usr. Lets declare a seperate |
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/usr to be broken. |
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3) To solve 2, lets force everyone to use an init* that contains the stuff |
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that should have stayed in /. |
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|
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> > > Again, a separate /usr without an initrd has NOTHING to do with systemd |
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> > > or udev, with the minor exception that Gentoo's packaging of those |
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> > > programs _might_ have an issue, but that is Gentoo's issue, NOT |
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> > > upstream's issue. |
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> > > |
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> > > If anyone involved with eudev, or is involved with the Gentoo Council |
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> > > thinks that the previous paragraph is incorrect, they are flat out |
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> > > wrong. |
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> > |
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> > I have yet to hear about a clear explanation why a seperate /usr is broken |
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> > apart from the use of bluetooth keyboards. (Which are still in the |
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> > minority when I check local shops/webstores) |
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> |
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> Again, see above for specifics. |
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|
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See above why I feel those 2 links are insufficient as an explanation. |
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-- |
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Joost |