RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: where goes Gentoo?

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Thu, 2005-08-04 at 11:48 -0400, Eric Brown wrote:
> Every business application of Gentoo I've done has been different.  I don't think I could generalize my needs into a single ebuild.  Although generally I have used rsyncd and apache, I never use them in the same way.  What's so hard about using the default rsyncd config, and adding distfiles to your apache document root? (what 90% of people would use).

You completely missed the management aspect here.  I'm talking about
some form of actual enterprise-ready management framework for
controlling a set of Gentoo servers centrally from deployment to
maintenance and upgrades.

> About automating updates and etc-update:  you can rsync your config file sometimes and just bypass all of the portage stuff.  You could mount some config dirs over nfs even.  You could even remove config_protect on some dirs and roll your own custom packages.

You can... You can... You can...

All I heard here was a bunch of excuses about how a person can take the
time to implement something that's been implemented by countless other
people, because Gentoo does not provide a framework for doing this.  The
whole idea of being enterprise-ready is having a drop-in solution that
works right off the bat, with minimal to no configuration for basic
services.  All of your solutions requires manpower to accomplish that
not every enterprise can afford to spend.  Once again, this is why
Gentoo is currently not used in these situations.

> About a slower moving portage tree for enterprise users:  Great idea, I think there's a GLEP about that.  I think it's best handled by third parties who can spend the money/man power on that kind of QA.

Yes, there is a GLEP about this.  This is also the first step to being
able to provide any level of enterprise-readiness.  You simply cannot
tell someone to upgrade glibc to some new version if something is wrong
with the current one.  They want a patch for the current one.  Think
bug-fixes only with absolutely zero new features between whatever form
of releases are created.

> This brings me to your last point about calling someone when there are problems:  There are companies that provide Linux services, even Gentoo specific services.  Some of these companies might even provide enterprise-grade portage mirrors with support for the packages they maintain there.

I don't think I would stake my company's infrastructure on the reliance
on Bob and Joe's Gentoo Support Hotline, sorry.  Not to mention you
haven't actually given a single example of someone who can provide this
level of enterprise support.  There's a reason why you haven't given an
example.  None exists.

> I'm sorry, I never ran 1000 Gentoo machines in production like that, I thought enterprise meant this (answers.com):
>
> en·ter·prise (ĕn'tər-prīz') pronunciation
> n.
>
>    1. An undertaking, especially one of some scope, complication, and risk.
>    2. A business organization.
>    3. Industrious, systematic activity, especially when directed toward profit: Private enterprise is basic to capitalism.
>    4. Willingness to undertake new ventures; initiative: “Through want of enterprise and faith men are where they are, buying and selling, and spending their lives like serfs” (Henry David Thoreau).

Wow.  A dictionary definition that is completely out of context and
doesn't account for the word enterprise being used as a technical
representation.

I've got a few "enterprise" definitions for you, too.

The Enterprise type is a two-man hiking sailing dinghy with a
distinctive blue sail and no spinnaker. Despite being one of the older
classes of dinghies, it remains popular and well used for both cruising
and racing. It has a combination of stability, size and power which
contiues to appeal to all ages, and to sailing schools.

...or...

Star Trek: Enterprise is a science fiction television series set in the
Star Trek universe.(Until the third season its title was simply
Enterprise, and it is often abbreviated as ST:ENT or ENT).The series
follows the adventures of the crew of the Enterprise (NX-01), the first
human interstellar ship that can achieve Warp 5.Enterprise premiered in
the United States on September 26, 2001, and is presently in its fourth,
and final, season.

...though the one I am looking for, and the one that fits the scope of
this conversation is this one:

In the computer industry, an enterprise is an organization that uses
computers. In practice, the term is applied much more often to larger
organizations than smaller ones.

We are using this in practice.  Therefore, we are speaking of large
organizations, and not just *any* organization.

> Doesn't this just go to show that in business, everyone wants something different from Gentoo?  What does Novell offer to manage large numbers of linux boxen?  Are you sure projects like OpenMosix don't have tools you could use to manage such a large number of machines?

Not really.  It does go to show that you'll go to great lengths to try
to prove a point, even when you're grasping at straws.  Everybody
wanting something from Gentoo has zero to do with the single goal of
providing an enterprise-ready version of Gentoo, which is the topic that
we are discussing.

Novell has several tools, that when used in combination, form a cohesive
framework for deploying, managing, and upgrading systems.  What's even
better, is it isn't just limited to Linux, but I'll leave that as an
exercise for the readers... ;]  Novell uses a combination of these
components, such as eDirectory and ZENworks, to form this framework.

> Maybe we can't rely on portage so much in scenarios where replication is the goal...

Portage really has nothing to do with deployment or management.  In
fact, the only thing it really does is package management, which is
probably why it is called a package management tool, and not an
enterprise resource manager.

> Of course, I'm sure you can't call Red Hat or Suse if you don't pay them some way or another.  If you don't pay, could you find such a supportive community on IRC or in forums? (I think not)

Of course not, nobody ever claimed that you could, nor implied it.

Nobody has ever mentioned *anything* about our community, because it has
exactly zero value in the enterprise, especially as a support medium.
Try telling some upper manager that he needs to download an IRC client,
then connect to irc.freenode.net, then join #gentoo and ask his question
in the channel, along with all the other noise, then hope that someone
answers his question.  Try explaining to him that this is the standard
form of support for your deployment, and watch as you get laughed out of
the office and off to the unemployment line.

> There are lots of Gentoo gurus who will gladly accept your money to help you fix your problems =)

Sorry, but I'm not calling vapier and listening to him tell me about his
wang when I have an issue with LDAP replication that I need resolved
immediately as my customers are starting to call in quite irate.  I
would want a company with a dedicated staff on-hand to support my needs
that is available when I need them.

> >I work for a telecommunications company, and we run Linux and Solaris.
> >For our Linux, we run Red Hat, even though they have, on staff, one of
> >the people that understands Gentoo's deployment capabilities better than
> >most, via catalyst and the GLI.  Why do we run Red Hat?  When something
> >breaks with one of their packages, we call them, and expect them to fix
> >it.  It is also a name that gives upper management the warm fuzzies.
> >Gentoo has neither the brand recognition, nor the support capabilities
> >to be a good sale to management.
>
> Sounds like FUD to me.  Use what works for you though.  If you managers really need that big brand name with that 800 number, that's just how you'll have to do it.  Perhaps I've been lucky at the places I work where I am simply responsible myself for keeping certain systems up, and that's that.

Ooohh... FUD.  Amazing how someone telling the truth is immediately
labeled as FUD, especially when it goes against the misconceptions and
bold-faced lies that someone that is a bit overzealous in his devotion
is trying to push.  My managers are normal managers, just like you would
find all over the enterprise.  They want to know about risks and costs,
and are damn well and ready to pay for support if it means that their
ass won't be on the line when something breaks.  It is starting to sound
to me that your idea of "enterprise" is "production" when the two are
far different.  Think of enterprise as an order of magnitude or more
greater than production.  If you're thinking 10 servers, think 100, or
1000.

> I wouldn't refute my manager's claims if he controlled my paycheck :D

Haven't you ever been in a meeting?  You know, where they ask your
opinion.  Are you a drone?  Do you just do everything that you're told
and question nothing?

If so, then you're *perfect* for a middle manager position in any large
enterprise corporation.  Start puckering your lips now, it's a position
you'll get used to quite quickly.  For the rest of us out here, we
actually give our managers our opinions, and when we're trying to use a
product, we fight for it.

> But in my professional opinion, as someone who has had to manage up to 10 Linux servers at a time, Gentoo was by far the best choice.  That's what I'd say to my manager if he ever asked me why I want to use Gentoo.

I don't mean to offend you, but 10 servers is nothing like an enterprise
deployment.  I have more than 10 servers at my house, and I surely don't
consider that any kind of enterprise.  Instead, think about managing
1000 geographically dispersed servers.  This is more the scale that
we're talking about, not the local Baptist church's IT needs.

Gentoo is currently unmaintainable at this scale without a significant
investment in infrastructure and development to make the system
manageable.  Think of it this way, if I can pay 4 developers to work on
this project for 6 months, and each developer makes $50,000 a year, or I
can pay Novell $100,000 and have the system in place in 2 weeks, which
do you think I would do?  This is the exact reason why Gentoo is not
used in the enterprise more.  There is simply too high a barrier of
entry into making a usable and manageable Gentoo deployment.

> Ever consider founding a company that specializes in Enterprise Gentoo deployment and support?  It sounds like there could be quite a demand for such services :)

Yeah, I considered it.  Then I came down from the acid trip and realized
how hateful it would be.  I'm sorry, but I definitely don't want to
spend my time being restricted to working only on the problems that some
large corporation deemed was important to them, being harassed and
stressed to meet their deadlines.  I work on Gentoo because I enjoy it,
not because I gain from it financially.  I have no problem adding
enterprise features or improving enterprise support, but I get enough
stress at my day job, why should I get even more from my hobby?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux