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Ed W posted on Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:40:30 +0000 as excerpted: |
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> I often hear this general kind of commentary. Just out of interest, |
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> how/why do you care about the byte count that much? Apart from embedded |
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> work, or perhaps virtualised servers, I find it surprising to imagine |
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> that "most people" find the "cost" of minimising installed size (well |
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> more than the obvious stuff) to be worth the effort (in general)? |
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|
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> If you are worried about security issues in dependencies then do also |
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> look at hardened (esp. with the gcc-4.4 hardened overlay) and perhaps |
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> grsecurity - this can very effectively mitigate the effects of many |
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> security holes. |
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|
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What a lot of (at least non-dev) folks don't realize is that particularly |
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on a distribution such as Gentoo, in addition to the size bloat, and |
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security considerations, both of which you brought up, there's the simple |
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or general ongoing maintenance consideration. Of course that's not quite |
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so big of an issue on embedded, where presumably you install it and let |
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it be for long periods of time (perhaps for the life of the unit), but |
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for general "computer" use, at /least/ desktop, the ongoing updates and |
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maintenance costs **FAR** outweigh any size consideration in the usual |
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case, and really, except to the extent that updates and security are tied |
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together, they outweigh the security aspect of the additional features as |
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well. |
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|
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It was actually a couple years into my Gentoo experience that the effect |
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of "bloat" in the form of optional dependencies (USE flags on Gentoo) |
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began to dawn on me, and I've only appreciated it more, since, |
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with the effect /particularly/ emphasized to me while I had both kde3 and |
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kde4 installed (luckily without Gnome to worry about as well). That's a |
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/huge/ number of additional packages to worry about keeping updated, for |
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the revdep-rebuild I run after every update to check and maybe flag for |
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rebuild, etc. |
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|
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To a rather lessor but more frequent extent, updating codecs and/or |
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imagemagick invariably triggers a revdep-rebuild on transcode, mplayer, |
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xine-libs, and k3b -- and that's with --as-needed in my LDFLAGS, without |
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it things would be MUCH MUCH worse. |
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|
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So if I'm not using a codec, or if I /might/ use it say once every year |
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or two, it's DEFINITELY better to have that USE flag off and not have to |
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deal with that codec triggering revdep-rebuilds every time it updates, |
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and in the event that I DO run across somethign that needs it, just turn |
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it on --single-shot, compile what I need with it, do what I want, then |
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turn it off and emerge -N and revdep-rebuild to put everything back to |
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not using it again. |
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|
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Of course with the big DEs the effect is far bigger. It's to the point |
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where when looking for an app for some new purpose, if it's dependent on |
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the desktop I don't run (GNOME, for me, but KDE for others), that's an |
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almost insurmountable barrier to overcome to have me even try it, because |
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the cost of continual maintenance of even the basics of an entire DE are |
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simply way too high to be worth it for a single app or even two or three, |
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unless they happen to be primary functionality for what I'm doing, of |
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course, in which case may I'll switch DEs. I long since settled on KDE |
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apps for most of my primary functionality, and the cost of doing |
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otherwise is high enough that's unlikely to change unless KDE or my own |
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needs change enough that I dump KDE entirely. (Actually, with kde4, a |
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lot of folks have found just that, that KDE changed out from under them |
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and no longer meets their needs, so they're switching away from it. I |
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came close, but had enough other reasons to stick with it that I found or |
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in some cases scripted my own solutions to the missing or b0rk3n kde4 |
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functionality, so ended up sticking with it... but at enormous personal |
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time and resources investment to do so... enough that comparably, paying |
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a grand for MS software would be a reasonable tradeoff... if there |
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weren't bigger issues I was worried about.) |
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|
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But you didn't even mention the cost of continuing maintenance factor for |
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all that "bloat", and on a Gentoo system, at least desktop, that's really |
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the big one. |
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|
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BTW, if you could, please turn off the HTML. Some people find it |
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troublesome to deal with. You (or your client) do include plain text, |
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which helps, but do you /really/ need the HTML, at the cost of making |
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life harder for some readers? |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |