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Sebastian Pipping posted on Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:00:03 +0200 as excerpted: |
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|
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> Duncan wrote: |
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>> [L]et's get some context here. layman's no difficulty at all, really, |
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>> when compared to the ordinary stuff we expect Gentoo users to do all |
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>> the time. |
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> |
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> I think you forget about the learning curve: Gentoo users are not born |
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> as Gentoo users. They are coming from other distros (say Debian or |
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> Ubuntu). |
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|
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Not forgetting that, but perhaps forgetting how "unordinary" my own |
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experience was. I came from Mandrake, but researched Gentoo well enough |
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that I was already explaining portage basics based on the material in the |
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Handbook, etc, on the user list (and reading the dev list), before I even |
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had Gentoo installed. |
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|
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I like to think that if I can do it, everybody can, but regardless of |
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whether they /can/ or not, it's a fact that not everybody /does/, as |
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demonstrated by the fact that people were asking the questions I was |
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answering. |
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|
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I /do/ sometimes forget /that/ end of it, that for whatever reason, not |
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everybody chooses to read the handbook, etc, even if it's ultimately only |
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making the job of sysadmining their own Gentoo boxen an order of |
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magnitude harder than it should be. |
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|
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> For me it was unmasking that confused me a lot in the beginning. There |
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> is three different kinds, one is not in "the books" afaik and it's no |
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> fun to me to do. I guess without autounmask by now I would be so |
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> frustrated to not use Gentoo anymore. |
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|
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You have me wondering now what's "not in the books." I'd guess the three |
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types of masking must be (entirely) unkeyworded, ~arch keyworded, and |
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hard-masked (package.mask-ed), but again, unless that material has |
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actually been /removed/ from the handbook since 2004, I was actually |
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explaining all that to others even from my still Mandrake system, so |
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it's /certainly/ in the books! |
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|
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And I don't need for autounmask, tho I do run ~arch. But the thing is, |
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if people are running enough individual ~arch packages so handling it |
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manually is difficult enough they need a tool for it, from my viewpoint, |
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they should seriously consider running ~arch anyway, since stable is |
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tested, and ~arch is somewhat tested, but nobody much tests a half-and- |
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half system nor could it be practically so in any case since there's just |
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too many millions of variants there to test, so trying to run such a half- |
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and-half system is really asking for more trouble than trying to run a |
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full ~arch system. |
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|
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But with a few small refinements over the years as Gentoo and its FLOSS |
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environment have changed, again, that's very close to the same position |
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and explanation I took from the very beginning, while I was still working |
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on my first install. |
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|
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> Seriously, stuff like the layman setup mess is another tiny reason |
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> keeping our user base smaller than needed, keeping our recruiting rates |
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> down. |
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|
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I guess I just don't see it. There's a reason the packages on the |
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overlays aren't yet part of the tree, because in general, either the |
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ebuilds (if not the upstream packages) aren't yet mature enough to be in- |
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tree (at least unmasked, in-tree), or they're community ebuilds, not |
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Gentoo-dev vetted ones. Keeping that distinction, for the protection of |
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both Gentoo and its users, is a deliberate policy. Those who are mature |
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enough to handle the risks of overlays can get them with little problem, |
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while those newbies who self-evidently are NOT mature enough in their |
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Gentoo usage to properly handle the risk (or it'd not be a problem for |
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them in the first place since they'd be comfortable with the tools and |
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how to use them), are by deliberate policy, kept away from the additional |
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risk and danger. |
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|
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Other than minor refinements here or there, I just don't see how that can |
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or should be changed, unless we're simply deciding that policy is wrong- |
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headed, so damn the torpedoes headed for our users, full steam ahead, let |
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them at them! |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |