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On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Brian Harring <ferringb@×××××.com> wrote: |
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> A proper SA avoids upgrade pathways were possible that require |
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> manual intervention. This requires manual intervention. |
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> |
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> Said proper SA's also have a rather large hatred of anything that can |
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> leave a system nonbootable (rant: including crappy SA's who don't |
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> verify the !@#*ing thing comes back up in a proper hot/warm state). |
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> This qualifies for that. |
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|
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This will be far from the first Gentoo upgrade which has required |
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either manual intervention, or which leaves the system in a |
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potentially-unbootable state. Gentoo just generally doesn't offer the |
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level of handholding that you are asking for. Users who want that |
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kind of experience may be better off with RHEL or another platform. |
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|
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I think we need a reasonable balance here. From what I've seen the |
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openrc upgrade seems pretty straightforward. The only caveat is that |
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you need to read the instructions before doing it. Nervous users |
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should burn rescue discs in advance. |
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|
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I think the important thing is to widely announce the upgrade. The |
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maintainers intend to do exactly this. I have complained in the past |
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when maintainers have made disruptive changes without notice, or with |
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notice committed at the same time as the change (which means that if |
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your emerge --sync is in a cron job you first hear about it AFTER |
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running emerge -au world). This isn't being done here. |
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|
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I'm afraid that if we set the bar as high as you're proposing, then |
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nobody will ever get around to providing an Ubuntu-like level of |
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polish or whatever and we'll just end up with two baselayouts for the |
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next five years. Keep in mind that ~arch having such major |
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differences from stable defeats some of the purpose of testing. Sure, |
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if somebody worked hard I'm sure they could meet your level of polish |
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in a few weeks, but unless you're personally willing to do it I'm not |
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sure that the maintainers are going to be willing - this is a |
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volunteer organization so when you say "do it this way or don't do it |
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at all" you're more likely to get the latter than the former. |
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|
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My feeling is that the openrc upgrade fragility is in keeping with the |
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general traditions of Gentoo - we expect Gentoo users to be reasonably |
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willing to get their hands dirty. I'm more concerned with making sure |
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our users are INFORMED than hand-held. |
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|
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And as far as "proper SAs" go - a "proper SA" always deploys changes |
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on a production-equivalent test environment anyway. Most "proper SAs" |
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also make backups and VM snapshots so that a borked upgrade is just a |
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bump in the road. "Proper SAs" also run on managed hardware so that |
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they can boot off of a rescue disc without being physically present. |
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Most of these "Proper SAs" also run RHEL anyway. :) |
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|
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Rich |