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To: gentoo-dev@g.o
From: David Nielsen <Lovechild@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Ebuild Janitor Project -- Any formalities to joining it?
Date: 11 May 2003 23:41:56 +0200
This is just getting out of hand...

I announce a project and suddenly I'm the antichrist.

I did not treated to fork portage anywhere - I can't even code python
for crying out loud.

Okay, the main issue seems to be getting along with developers.

Here's a little background, I have Tourette' syndrome and I'm on
antidepressants following an attempt at taking my life, bare with me I
have a short fuse - I take shit all day.

Here's what makes me happy, getting good ideas, and this project seemed
like a good idea - So I took a chance, I never expected the project to
take off the way it did, I figured I would fix up a few critical ebuilds
a week and submit them to Bugzilla. It seems we need a quicker solution
without compromising the stability of portage as a whole - we don't want
broken shit in there do we?

We also need an agreement on Janitorial suggestions on portage and USE
flag improvements - If we are to review all ebuilds we probably need to
have an easy way to debating new USE flags other than bugzilla.

Here's the plan as laid out in advance:

We plan to release a tarball once a week with new ebuilds, now we are
not asking for them to just go directly into portage, so there needs to
be some developer review time going on also if possible - we also wanna
make sure we waste as little time as possible right?

The plan has also always been to keep the project extremely open, that's
why we have the forum, it's an exellent way of keeping track of what
people are doing and what concerns we might have. We could simply cry
"help" when we need some assistance which might work fine. There
shouldn't be a exceedingly great need for developers input when talking
just ebuilds, we are talking a new USE flag every now and again maybe.

As for future ideas for portage development, I would suggest checking
the forum every now and again, there are some extremely wacky people
throwing around ideas in there, once an idea is developed we will submit
it to gentoo-dev for debating.

deal ?

Lovechild

Oh the janitor forums are down for the time being, I'm unaware of the
reason - Slougi is in charge of that.

On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 23:14, Zach Welch wrote:
> David Nielsen wrote:
>  > Frankly people like you kill every possible joy I might get out of
>  > this - all you do is complain, not one word about the relative
>  > niceness of this project and what it could do for the state of the
>  > ebuilds.
> 
> Okay, I will not let you toss around phrases such as 'people like you'
> without throwing my hat in the ring.  When I started reading this
> thread, I was very optimisitc about the possibilities your project
could
> hold, and I personally think a user-managed project to track new
ebuilds
> would better than using developer resources.  But when I look at this
> reply, I can almost watch as your newly formed political island starts
> sinking into the sea.  Be careful before you start shaking things
up....
> 
>  > That being said - No, I didn't talk to anyone about it before going
>  > ahead, portage is gpl'ed, I can do what ever I want to it, and I
>  > intend to. I didn't want to announce anything untill it was off the
>  > ground because I think people spend FAR to much time talking and
FAR
>  > to little time actually doing something.
> 
> You are absolutely correct about portage being GPL'd.  You can do
> anything you want with it; however, the attitude you demonstrate here
> will accomplish nothing but to alienate you from the developer
> community.  I personally believe you've just done a great disservice
to
> your project by saying these things, as your statement here amounts to
> nothing less than a thinly veiled threat to fork Gentoo.  I'm pretty
> sure I speak for all the other devs when I say: go for it.
> 
>  > I didn't expect it to take off this fast, we have been going for a
>  > few days, and there are now several ebuilds waiting in queue to be
>  > comfirmed working once that has happened they will be forwarded to
>  > bugzilla. (This all written in the guidelines on the forum, but I'm
>  > guessing you didn't even take your time to read that).
> 
> The problem with your system is one of trust.  Developers do *not*
> blindly trust submissions of new ebuilds.  Even if your system works
> perfectly to improve the quality of Bugzilla submissions, it will take
> time for the project to earn the trust of the Gentoo developers.  Your
> starting off by implying 'people like you' are part of the problem
will
> make it more difficult (if only a little) for you to find support for
> those submissions.
> 
> I just want everyone to understand that that there are more than
> technical issues at play here; the process for getting something into
> Portage involves more than technical discussion or review - it
requires
> getting along with the project leaders, demonstrating to them that you
> know what you are doing, and contributing only what the majority of
> developers are willing to support.
> 
> Most of the developers are working their butts off behind the scene -
I
> personally put in no less than 60 hours a week on Gentoo, improving it
> is now my full-time, self-employed job.  All of the cross-compiling
and
> embedded support that I am presently developing with and for Gentoo is
> GPL'd and available, and there are others that manage to contribute
far
> more than me (both visible and behind the scenes).
> 
> There is far more work being done by developers than can be given
> credit, so complaints of this nature that appear to come out of
nowhere
> are tantamont to blasphemy and more than enough to give us ulcers.
> 
> All this coming from someone that (a) would be willing to support your
> project from the "inside" and (b) is helping with the back-end
services
> that could make it feasible from a QA standpoint.  In other words,
> someone that you really want to have on your team.  You can easily fix
> this with me, but I want this to be a lesson to the wider community:
> 
> The way that individuals interact, both politically and socially, with
> the Gentoo culture matters more than anything that you can bring into
> it.  In other words, a technical solution is only welcome when it does
> not disrupt the culture - the culture must be ready for the solution.
> Put more broadly: we don't want you playing in our sandbox if you
don't
> want to play nice. THIS GOT ME KICKED OUT OF GENTOO, LISTEN TO ME!
> 
> The point being that, as much as many of us might love the idea of
your
> project, we are not ready to implement it today.  It will be too
> distruptive to the existing culture; reform can not happen overnight.
> In that respect, discussion this subject further on these lists is
*not*
> appropriat - it will only cause further distraction and disruption.
> 
> Please, I want this thread to end here and now, and I thought very
> carefully about whether I should send it at all.  Flame me personally
> but keep it off the list.  If my sentiments do not truly reflect those
> of "management", then let them put in any final words.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Zach Welch
> Gentoo Developer
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list


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Re: culture clash (was: Ebuild Janitor Project)
-- Zach Welch
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