Re: [gentoo-dev] Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@×××××.com>  wrote:
>
>>  From a users perspective.  Could it not be possible to have some USE flag,
>> or other setting, that would tell portage that a separate /usr partition is
>> being used then have the needed files placed elsewhere on / ?  I'm not a dev
>> and I don't play one on TV but I do like options and being able to customize
>> some things.  It is one of the things Gentoo is about.
>>
>>
> I don't see what a USE flag gets us:
>
> 1.  If you have a separate /usr then either booting without an
> initramfs will work or it won't work - largely depending on how
> complex your environment is.  Booting with an initramfs will work
> reliably (well, if we sort out the initramfs situation - having done
> some more tests I have one virtual machine which was pretty easy to
> get running, and one physical box that for whatever reason wouldn't
> detect/start the RAID).
>
> 2.  If you don't have a separate /usr than booting will always work
> regardless of where the files are, since the system will always find
> them.
>
> Unless what is being proposed is to actually do the Fedora thing and
> make /bin, /lib, etc a symlink into /usr/bin, /usr/lib, etc than there
> isn't anything at package-install time for the flag to affect.  If we
> do want to do the Fedora thing would a flag even work, since those
> directories get created from the stage3?  It seems to me that if you
> want the symlinks you just need to set them up when doing the install
> (or from a rescue disk), and then the package manager should follow
> the links when doing subsequent installs.  Oh, and not all package
> managers like the top-level directories to be symlinks.
>
> I think that as was the case with the use of bash vs sh we may need to
> have a policy decision made here.  Right now the general policy has
> been to conform to FHS, and the Fedora/etc proposal does not do this
> (and apparently we are already a bit out of compliance).  I think that
> moving in a different direction is a big decision.
>
> And, if we do decide to move in that direction, I agree with Samuli
> that we need a transition plan.  Packages can't just start breaking
> initrd-less setups left and right overnight.  To start, we need to get
> dracut/etc configurable to mount any necessary directories (I checked
> - it is fairly smart (though not 100% effective) at finding root, but
> does not try to mount anything else).  Then we need to update our
> documentation.  Then we need to communicate the change to users, and
> give them time to migrate.  Only then can packages have the freedom to
> require usr to be available at boot.
>
> I don't propose that if we move in this direction that we "fix"
> anything that isn't currently FHS-compliant - the damage is already
> done.  We just should avoid propagating the situation until users are
> ready.
>
> Rich
>
>

The USE flag was just one option that I could think of.  That is why I 
also said "or something" along with that.  You devs are good at coming 
up with neato tools to fix stuff.  ;-)

I understand that Fedora is wanting to do this.  What I don't understand 
is why.  It seems it is udev that is wrecking this havoc.  I like udev 
myself and it seems to work fine but surely something can be done to fix 
this without breaking something else.   It seems from your reply that it 
is breaking the rules of FHS which if Gentoo follows will then be 
breaking FHS as well and this will likely force others to do the same.  
Can someone not explain this to the people that are pushing this?

I saw it mentioned somewhere that a /run directory can be created.  
Since it would likely be small, I wouldn't mind that.  I'd be fine if 
the same files were installed in both /usr/*bin and /run.  I just like 
being able to have /usr, /var and /home on a separate partition without 
a init*.  I usually start my system out as /, /boot and /home.  Then 
after the install is done, I figure up the space need based on the space 
used and copy to a new drive that is partitioned out as /boot, /, /home, 
/usr, and /var.  I am sure there are users that have to have /usr and/or 
/var on a separate partition but don't want a init* to deal with.

Again, my $0.02.  Whatever that is worth.

Dale

:-)  :-)