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To: gentoo-dev@g.o
From: "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@g.o>
Subject: Re: Tone in Gentoo
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:10:16 +0000
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On 19-06-2010 17:40, Richard Freeman wrote:
> On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>>> #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters.
>>> The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in
>>> a sense of "tone doesn't matter".
>>
>> you've failed to notice an important point that others have already
>> tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra
>> team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it
>> is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer.
> 
> Perhaps he didn't fail to notice this point, but rather he just
> disagrees with it?
> 
> The fact is that #gentoo-infra is part of the Gentoo linux distribution.
>  It belongs to every Gentoo developer, or at least legally to every
> Gentoo foundation member.  Conduct on this channel reflects on all
> Gentoo developers.

Richard,

that channel is as much part of the Gentoo Linux distribution as
#gentoo-kde, #gentoo-elections, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-forums and many
others, including private channels for some teams.
I can assure you that if someone goes to #gentoo-forums and tries to
tell the forums team what tone should be used in that channel, we'll
kindly ask the person to stop or to leave. This is one of the "public"
and exposed channels and thus we have a tone with that in mind, but
we're not going to set our tone according to the demands of a developer
that is not even part of the team. I can convey similar statements about
#gentoo-userrel, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-elections and many others. I've
picked these particular channels as I'm member of these teams, have been
for a while, and these are public channels that try to keep an inviting
tone as they are very exposed to the community.
If someone tried to go to the old userrel private channel and tell the
people in the team how to behave in their "backyard", they would likely
get a similar response to that used in #gentoo-infra. What would grant
any non-member of a team the right to demand how the members of the team
should act amongst themselves in their private room?

About the "legal right", that isn't true. There are a few misconceptions
in your statement. Even though the Foundation is the body which holds
the Gentoo brand, trademarks and logo, it's not the Foundation that sets
the rules for joining and be part of the Gentoo Developers Community.
Furthermore, being a Gentoo developer doesn't mean you can join any team
you want or that you have a "right" to go to any #gentoo-* channel. In
case you have any doubt, I can give you a list of quite a few channels
most developers don't have access to.
If you insist, to address the question that access lists for #gentoo-*
channels can be set by Freenode (our main IRC network), you should know
that the only people Freenode will listen to regarding that are the
members of the Freenode Gentoo Group Contacts. The people in that group
were not chosen by the Foundation nor do they respond to it.
Also, please never forget that being part of Gentoo is a "privilege" and
not a "right".

> It really does bother me that everybody is lining up to defend this kind
> of behavior.  If the response had been - sorry, I guess the joking got
> out of hand I'd say, ok, well, let's try to do better but let's all move
> on.  I don't see offensive behavior using Gentoo IDs/IRC Cloaks/media as
> a trivial matter.  It sets the overall tone of the distro, which is what
> this thread is all about.

I'm not defending "your-mom jokes" nor a "harsh tone" in Gentoo. I'm
trying to explain the difference between joking amongst friends on your
house and making insulting comments directed towards individual members
or a global community in the public.
The #gentoo channel has had a long time policy of clean language as it
can be and is used by children and it's one of the channels (the one?)
with greater exposure to the community. Many of the comments and jokes
that are common practice and perfectly reasonable on #gentoo-dev would
likely get you a warning in #gentoo. Some #gentoo-* channels impose some
restrictions about valid topics for that channel. The #gentoo-ops
channel topic is "Discussion of #gentoo issues". The #gentoo-kde channel
doesn't want PM discussions. So the appropriate tone for each channel
depends of its environment.

> I've heard several devs over the years comment that they love
> contributing to Gentoo, but they'd never put it on their resume.  Who
> can blame them?  I know that if I ever were hiring somebody and they
> pointed out that they were a Gentoo dev, I'd tend to assume that their
> technical knowledge was pretty good but you can be assured I'd do quite
> a bit of digging around to figure out if they're somebody I'd want
> working on my team.

Well, this is an option of every Gentoo developer. It's up to each
member of the community to decide whether they want to publicize their
participation in Gentoo or not. To be more precise, it's the option of
every member of every community to decide that.
In my humble opinion, that decision reveals much about the person and
can help explain how one behaves in the Gentoo community. So if that
helps you or someone else make your opinion about this particular Gentoo
developer, you should know I do publicize that I'm a member of this
community and I feel no shame in being part of it.

> I don't think that most Gentoo devs behave in this way.  I think a lot
> of people care about trying to fix this.  I don't think it is asking too
> much for Gentoo devs to try to keep their behavior reasonably
> professional when using Gentoo media, or Gentoo emails/cloaks/etc.

No, it's not too much to ask and I agree we should all try to keep our
best behaviour - in particular in public. But none of us has any right
demanding that in private mediums.
As an example, even though I use my gentoo cloak online, you don't have
any right to impose a behaviour into me in my private channel.

> No need to start burning people at the stake for slip-ups, but let's at
> least try to agree that we'd like to be associated with a somewhat
> professional-acting distribution?
> 
> Rich

We have a loosely-knit community that is able to provide a reasonable
product "Gentoo Linux". Let's try to avoid killing it by wanting to
impose a certain "mentality" or "behaviour" into others and let's try to
respect each other and learn to live in a community.


- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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Replies:
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Richard Freeman
References:
Tone in Gentoo
-- Sebastian Pipping
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Sebastian Pipping
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Sebastian Pipping
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Richard Freeman
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