Hi all,

I agree with this.

I don't think that we should have the livecd boot directly into an installer either.  I was comfortable using the current install process, and I think it should always be an option.

Thanks,

William

On Mon, Apr 14, 2003 at 11:18:52AM +0100, Stroller wrote:
> On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 09:49  am, Jeff Rose wrote:
> 
> > 	One of the major pains in the redhat like installers deals with
> > package selection.  I think it is ridiculous to give people a list of
> > a thousand packages and tell them to pick.  Especially since the
> > package documentation is horrible.  Most people probably wouldn't know
> > that its important for them to have the e2fsprogs installed, for
> > example.  So,  this
> > is the portion of the installer where I see the most room for
> > innovation.
> 
> Hear! Hear!
> 
> I work (for my sins) in an evangelically M$-only environment. Our IT
> Director has obviously read something in the newspapers recently about
> Linux, so he dusted off his "old" Vaio c-series & installed DeadRat,
> then brought it to me when it booted to Gnome & didn't set-up the circa
> 1180 x 480 screen resolution properly.
> 
> Some things I found:
> - sendmail started at the default runlevel when I booted it up.
> - he was logging in to the GUI as root, and didn't even now how to get
> a virtual terminal using ctrl-alt-f1
> - gcc wasn't installed and the VaioCam stuff needs installing from
> source.
> - RH8 allows you to copy the CD .iso files to hard-drive (in DOS for
> instance), boot from a floppy, and then continue the install from these
> HD images. Unfortunately, once the system is installed, the "control
> panel" package manager doesn't know where to look for CDs, and fails
> anytime you  try to add packages. I couldn't find an option to change
> this at all, so ended up mounting the .iso files as `-o loop` (mind
> you, at least I learned something), running rpm from the CLI, and
> fulfilling dependencies by hand. Yeuch! It's cute & ironic that Gentoo
> is intended for "power-users", as against RH's ease-of-use, yet such a
> problem cannot arise with Gentoo.
> - I want a Vaio c-series
> 
> Now, I rather like the current Gentoo install process, but I've been
> using Linux for a couple of years already. A friend with only Windows
> experience recently overheard me talking about Gentoo, and decided to
> try it. Because he does not live locally, I can't visit him to help
> when he has problems with his install, and I really feel I should have
> recommended Mandrake.
> 
> We'll see how it goes when my friend resolves his present issue with an
> older CD-ROM drive resolved, but I would not complain if an installer: -
> helped with network card detection,
>   and helped ensure that /etc/modules.autoload was suitable
> - saved typing when partitioning
> - automated the copying / extraction if the stage.tar files
> - did the chroot automatically
> - prompted the user for a root password
> - insisted on adding an initial user
>   (making sure it gave that user wheel privileges, so the user can `su`)
> - offered to install a GUI of the user's choice
>   from the KDE / Gnome grp tarballs
> - did NOT add xstart to the default run-level, but added info on how to
>   do so to the MOTD. AFAICT configuring X can be a a bit complicated,
> and  autodetection of hardware could be quite a task to write. So IMO,
> when  the system is booted for the first time, it should go to the
> CLI, and  newbie users can't complain if X doesn't handle their
> graphics card /  monitor: the answer is "it's not intended to do
> that".
> - on the same theme, I'd like the installation process to disable root
>   logins to the GUI.
> - some other stuff I can't think of at this time in the morning
> 
> It arises however that Gentoo has some very nice features for its new
> users:
> - Gentoo installs a simple Unix system, with no bloat.
>   This really is what Unix is about: I often read in Linux newsgroups
> posters asking "Why doesn't foo happen when I click bar in the network
> options box of the Linux control panel".
>   So many GUI configuration tools are available in modern distros that
> they become, perhaps, less usable, and harder to support.
>   Unix is NOT Windows - why do folks so often try to make it that way..?
> Equally I feel that Gentoo probably shouldn't be marketed as a first
> distro (and it's bit unfortunate that so many newbies consider
> themselves power-users & like the idea of a "small, tight,
> highly-optimised system", but have expections of GUI configuration
> tools).
> - Gentoo doesn't impose a particular GUI on you, or install 5.
>   I remember finding the choice a bit overwhelming when I first tried
> Mandrake.
> - It's not Unix if cc isn't installed.
>   I've met OS X sys admins who are afraid to install from source, and I
> remember my trepidation at  the idea when I first started Linux.
> Gentoo overcomes this VERY well.
> 
> So, anyway, I'm probably preaching to the converted here, and so
> wasting my breath. I usually try not to advocate operating systems. I
> guess I'm proposing balance in any installer that is written: if you
> don't try to make it do too much, I think you could be very successful.
> 
> Stroller.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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