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To: gentoo-dev@g.o
From: Alec Warner <antarus@g.o>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 20:40:47 -0700
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Andrew D Kirch<trelane@...> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> < trelane> ciaranm: I want Paludis to fail. It's unhealthy (or at least
>> the loudest and most visible of it's devs are) for Gentoo.
>>
>> < trelane> lets be VERY clear on that point. So long as Paludis, and
>> the culture it creates are unhealthy for Gentoo I want it to fail.
>>
>> < trelane> ciaranm: that's put in a manner that seems to be a somewhat
>> knee-jerk reaction. It should be clear that opposing you and everything
>> you do was an initiative I started only after careful consideration.
>>
>>

I think to preface I will state that Gentoo now is not the Gentoo of
yore and will likely never be again.  That is part of the reason why I
left (too big, too rudderless).  I hope the new council can find a
rudder.  That being said the comments below are mine alone.

>
> Ciaran, you are killing Gentoo.  You wrote a demonstrably error prone
> GLEP 39, then tried to exploit it to ram through GLEP 55, and you got
> caught. You've created a huge amount of red tape, needless bickering
> argument, and have utterly hamstrung every council ever convened.
> Ciaran, you will not be doing this again.

I somehow doubt Ciaran agrees with you view; nor a number of other
folks.  It makes it look like you comments are a bit accusatory as if
he is conspiring to destroy Gentoo; and I don't think that is the
truth of things.
One man wars are not really easy to fight; and you will not win many
friends (and plenty of enemies.)

That being said Gentoo is what people make of it; I don't think there
is a "Single Gentoo Vision" and there has not been one for years; so
it is difficult to see how Ciaran is bringing down anything.  If you
think his ideas are crap then I suggest locating the people who are
using them and talk to them about it.  Certainly some people think
they are good ideas (otherwise why are they being adopted?).

>
> So there is now a moral question, do I have the right to oppose Ciaran,
> Paludis, and everything he does?  Certainly I do, especially since he
> has created many, myriad, and manifest arguments in the community
> (amazingly we're having one now, and I was drug into it).  Do I have the
> right to voice this opinion?  Certainly I do.  Is the opinion correct?
> In my eyes yes.

A moral question?  Is this some kind of crusade?  You have the right
to do whatever you want; but you can keep your personal crusade
against Ciaran *offlist*, just like all the other personal jibs and
statements.

>
> Note though the second sentence, as it is incredibly important.  Ciaran
> insists on continuing to create red tape for Gentoo, it has created a
> recent and MAJOR incident in a council meeting which has created bent
> feelings, and totally hijacked the initiative of the council.  Until
> this behavior stops I will oppose it publicly and loudly.

To be blunt; the devs picked a poor council then; I hope the new
council does better in this area too.  It seems to me that if everyone
agreed with you that Ciaran was useless and his ideas sucked then he
wouldn't get the council's ear.  However I believe the opposite is
true; developers and teams report specific problems; he goes off to
solve them and then brings them to the council.  His ideas are
actually useful (not all of them, but some) and thus the council is
willing to listen.

The council should be completely under its own control.  Step 1 of
running an effective meeting is not letting the attendees run the
meeting over you (and I've seen it happen in real life meetings and it
is hilarious; but I feel bad for the guy running the meeting all the
same.)  That involves telling Ciaran to STFU if they are spending too
much time on his stuff (as anyone who is presenting at meetings.)

>
> I would also point you to the recent council vote, wherein dev-zero was
> ousted (see the major incident) and peper, who I think is a nice, sane
> guy in my dealings ended up dead last.  This is of course because of his
> relationship with you Ciaran.

Of course, you know how everyone voted and why; thus we can easily
deduce that everyone hates Ciaran, Exherbo, and Peper!  I think  its
your opinion that Peper lost due to this association (and I would
hesitate to call it "obvious".)

>
> Ciaran, you are perhaps the least politically capable person I've ever
> met.  It is not possible for you to holdiin your head at the same time
> two divergent ideas.  Your idea of pluralism is that everyone does
> things your way.  Then when that doesn't happen you throw a temper
> tantrum.  You sir, are killing Gentoo for these and many other reasons,
> and I demand that you stop, I will also unilaterally oppose you until
> you do.

The fact that you make this a black and white case is why I doubt your
reasonable stance on the issues.  I don't think unilaterally opposing
anyone puts you on moral high ground.  What if Ciaran actually has a
good idea; will you oppose it just because it is Ciaran?  You know
what I called upstreams who ignored patches from me because I was a
Gentoo developer?  I call them idiots.  Please don't fall into the
same boat (and don't shoot Gentoo in the foot by ignoring a source of
progress.)

>
> Andrew D Kirch
> Funtoo.org
>
>
> PS: Ciaran, Thank you for comparing me to Rush Limbaugh, I consider it a
> compliment.
>
>


References:
A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Ned Ludd
Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Ciaran McCreesh
Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Brian Harring
Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Steven J Long
Re: Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Ciaran McCreesh
Re: Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Denis Dupeyron
Re: Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Ciaran McCreesh
Re: Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Denis Dupeyron
Re: Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Ciaran McCreesh
Re: Re: Re: A Little Council Reform Anyone?
-- Andrew D Kirch
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