On 19:56 Fri 13 Mar     , Thilo Bangert wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@g.o> said:
> > On 19:06 Wed 11 Mar     , Thilo Bangert wrote:
> > > > > the presumption seems to be, that as a dev one has to be 
> > > > > available via IRC. it has long been my feeling that Gentoo as 
> > > > > a project could realize more of its potential by better 
> > > > > integrating people who dont do IRC.
> >
> > I think IRC helps to build a more tightly knit community and, 
> > because of this, is very important to Gentoo. The less close we are 
> > as a community, the more free we feel to be hostile because we don't 
> > see the folks on the other end of the big tube as real people. It's 
> > much like a technique that militaries use during wars to 
> > de-personalize the enemy, except with the Internet, we start that 
> > way and have to apply effort to grow closer.
> 
> so you say, that presumption is ok?

Honestly, yes. Gentoo development (and users too!) is a very 
IRC-centered community, and I think IRC is one of the reasons it is a 
strong development community. Parts of the forums are similarly critical 
to building a strong user community (Gentoo Chat, Off the Wall), as is 
the Gentoo Universe for developers.

IRC is a lot like this mailing list in some ways. Even as developers, 
you can choose not to participate, and consequently you have to deal 
with the decisions you chose not to be part of making when you hear 
about them after the fact on -dev-announce.

> i agree 100% with what you say, but it doesnt (at least directly) 
> address my concern. i think IRC is an excellent medium - the problems 
> i see, though, are related to the fact that IRC requires all 
> stakeholders to be available at the time of discussion. for a 
> multitude of reasons this can almost never be guaranteed. also, even 
> if we did have IRC logs, the signal to noise ratio on IRC is 
> devastating (at least in my experience).

I agree that all stakeholders (to use your term) ought to participate 
before a decision, but even on IRC this doesn't mean they all have to be 
present simultaneously. In my experience, a few stakeholders are around 
at a time, and they're able to have a lot of very fast real-time 
discussion that would be vastly slowed down by a mailing list. Then a 
few hours later, maybe a couple of the same people will be around and a 
couple new stakeholders. The new ones catch up and have some more fast 
back-and-forth.

> for those reasons, i would like to see more bridge-building between 
> the worlds. i didnt want to give examples, as i dont like pointing 
> fingers, but here it is: relengs discussion to switch to weekly 
> autobuilds. presumably there hast been one, but i cant find it in the 
> list archives. not on gentoo-dev@g.o and not on gentoo-releng@g.o - 
> where else should i look? IRC perhaps - well, where are the logs? 
> interestingly, the announcement of the switch has a pointer to the 
> releng project page, which does not even mention the IRC channel.

I agree that important decisions deserve summaries instead of hiding out 
anywhere, whether it's buried in IRC discussions or archived 
mailing-list threads!

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com