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To: gentoo-dev@g.o
From: Dale <rdalek1967@...>
Subject: Re: Tone in Gentoo
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:17:30 -0500
Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 19 June 2010 09:10, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr."<phajdan.jr@g.o>  wrote:
>    
>> On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote:
>>      
>>> As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a
>>> pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing
>>> list if you want to see how much :)
>>>        
>> I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success?
>> I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing
>> friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community.
>>
>> Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to
>> encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent people
>> more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from
>> leaving.
>>
>> Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the
>> only thing you care about).
>>      
> This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top
> reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not
> getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the
> level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other
> poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to
> keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of
> repeat offenders?
>
> Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo?
>
> Cheers,
> Ben
>
>    

I would like to say this to the list and then I have no plans to say 
anything else.  This is NOT directed at Ben either, just picked this to 
reply to.  I would love to learn how to do some programing and help 
Gentoo.  I been using Gentoo since the 1.4 days.  I'm not a genius and I 
don't even claim to know a lot much less everything.  Thing is, I was 
here several years ago when even this mailing list was basically out of 
control.  Are things better, you dang right they are.  They are hugely 
better.  Are they where they should be, nope.  A lot of progress has 
been made but it still is not like it should be.  If I owned Gentoo and 
it was my pride and joy, I wouldn't tolerate some of the things that are 
said.  Since most people here have jobs, would your boss knowingly allow 
some of the things said here or on private lists to continue, or would 
someone be looking for a job?  I don't want a answer, just some to think 
about the question a bit.  I understand that people here are volunteers 
too.  No need to point that out.  Thing is, it doesn't matter if you 
volunteer or not.  I volunteer for a lot of things locally but I won't 
volunteer for Gentoo.  I just happen to like the OS.  I wouldn't 
continue to volunteer for the local things if I had to deal with some 
things that happen on the lists either.  Again, it has improved a lot or 
I wouldn't be subscribed at all.  My hats off to the ones that got it 
this far.

To Sebastian, the mailing list has improved a lot and there are still 
occasions where things happen that shouldn't.  The changes you want are 
going to be difficult if not impossible.  Make the decision that I made, 
either let things get better over time then join in or if you feel like 
it, try to help change them slowly.  If you expect this to change 
anytime soon, you will only disappoint yourself.  I fear it will 
eventually lead to a lawsuit from somebody then things will change.  
Eventually, someone will go to far and then Gentoo will be at least 
partially on the hook for it and be forced to change.  I'm not saying 
Gentoo would or should lose but the costs of the defense will force a 
change.  Most small organizations like Gentoo can't afford but one bite 
out of that apple.  As some have said in the past, the mailing list and 
such do belong to Gentoo.  Therefore, Gentoo would be accountable for 
its part of what happens on them.  The lawyers will argue that Gentoo 
allowed it to continue and therefore permitted it to happen.  Again, may 
not work but Gentoo would still have to foot the bill to defend itself.

My $0.02 worth for the day and that ain't much.

Dale

:-)  :-)


References:
Tone in Gentoo
-- Sebastian Pipping
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Sebastian Pipping
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Patrick Lauer
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Paweł Hajdan, Jr.
Re: Tone in Gentoo
-- Ben de Groot
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