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List Archive: gentoo-devrel
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To: gentoo-devrel@g.o
From: Tim Yamin <plasmaroo@g.o>
Subject: 20050614 Meeting Log
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:37:34 +0100
19:02 :::: plasmaroo changed the topic of #gentoo-devrel to: Gentoo Developer Relations || Meeting!
19:02 :::: vapier!UserBah@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
19:02 <@dmwaters> vapier: hi
19:02 <@dmwaters> alright
19:02 <@dmwaters> we're mostly here, or as here as we probably will be
19:03 <@dmwaters> i'm going to moderate again, like last week, we'll have questions after
19:03 <@plasmaroo> Mhm.
19:03 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by dmwaters
19:03 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo
19:03 <@plasmaroo> :)
19:03 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +vvv vapier urilith fmccor by dmwaters
19:03 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: still here?
19:04 <@dmwaters> well, first up on our adjenda is urilith's proposal
19:05 <@dmwaters> we discussed it last week, and the general consensis seems to be "yes" with the changes that were suggested in the meeting
19:05 <@dmwaters> so, final vote, yes or no
19:05 <@dmwaters> i say yes
19:05 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: ?
19:05 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: ?
19:05 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: ?
19:05 <@dmwaters> seemant: ?
19:05 <@dmwaters> cshields: ?
19:06 <@plasmaroo> I say go for it... it's better than status quo so bleh :)
19:06 <@spyderous> sure, thanks for asking. =P
19:06 <@dmwaters> spyderous: thanks:) was looking to see who else was here:)
19:06 <@dmwaters> that's 3 so far
19:07 <@dmwaters> Astinus: ?
19:07 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: ?
19:07 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: sup
19:07 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: scroll up
19:07 <@ka0ttic> sorry, trying to add 2 new devs
19:08 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: not going to be around much longer have to take my dad to the hospital
19:08 <@ka0ttic> we're taking the latest updates to the proposal into consideration?
19:08 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: ouch
19:08 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: with the meeting last week with the changes, and fmccor's wording changes, yes
19:09 <@dostrow_work> well more like un-ouch, hopefully he'll be able to walk again after this and it is outpatient so he doesn't have to stay
19:09 <@seemant> I vote yes
19:09 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: all of it has been discussed on the gentoo-devrel ml over the past week
19:09 <@dmwaters> seemant++ :)
19:09 <@dostrow_work> anyway I'll only be here for like 5 minutes
19:09 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: just a yes or no for urilith's proposal
19:11 <@ka0ttic> is this something that's going to be set in stone once decided upon?
19:12 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: it's going to be put to core for any last objections.
19:12 <@ka0ttic> ok I think that's a good idea
19:12 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: but if devrel agrees, and they've had time to discuss it, and most seem to agree, yes, we'll go with it.
19:13 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: if they object, well, quite honestly, i don't see why they should. we can't make everyone happy, and most of the dev base doesn't seem to care
19:13 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: but it's been dragged out long enough, further flaming and objections aren't going to do much good
19:14 <@ka0ttic> yeah
19:14 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: yes
19:14 <@dostrow_work> now I gotta run
19:14 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: thanks daniel, good luck with your dad
19:14 <@dmwaters> that makes 5.
19:14 <@dmwaters> anyone else?
19:14 <@ka0ttic> oh I thought I said it already. 'yes'
19:15 <@dmwaters> 6.
19:15 <@plasmaroo> 6.
19:15 <@plasmaroo> :)
19:15 <@ka0ttic> slarti: ?
19:15 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: thanks:)
19:16 <@dmwaters> ok
19:16 <@dmwaters> so looks like the rest probably aren't here
19:16 <@slarti> ka0ttic: hi
19:17 <@dmwaters> slarti: hi
19:17 <@dmwaters> slarti: scroll up please?
19:17 <@ka0ttic> slarti: excersice your right!
19:17 <@dmwaters> heh
19:17 <@ka0ttic> or something like that
19:17 <+vapier> *cough* to party
19:17 <@ka0ttic> exercise*
19:17 <@slarti> dmwaters: yes
19:17 <@dmwaters> 7
19:18 <@slarti> fmccor: are you around?
19:18 <+fmccor> slarti, yes
19:18 <@slarti> fmccor: are you prepared to vote on urilith's proposal?
19:18 <+fmccor> If I have a vote, it's yes.
19:18 <@dmwaters> vapier: ?:)
19:19 <+vapier> ?
19:19 <@dmwaters> vapier: yes or no:p fmccor has given his opinion:)
19:19 <+vapier> i know nothing of said proposal
19:20 <@dmwaters> vapier: have you been reading gentoo-devrel?
19:20 <+vapier> should i be ?
19:20 <@dmwaters> uh, yeah
19:20 **** vapier subscribes
19:20 <@dmwaters> you wanted to be part of devrel, you should be keeping up with what's going on.
19:20 <+vapier> you said you'd get back to me in a few weeks
19:20 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
19:20 <@dmwaters> vapier: the list has been talked about on core;p
19:21 <+vapier> i know
19:21 <@dmwaters> vapier: yes, and i am today, but i thought you'd be following what's been happening
19:21 <@dmwaters> anyway...
19:22 <@dmwaters> i'm going with that we're going to accept this proposal with the changes suggested by fmccor and the meeting last week.
19:22 <@dmwaters> next topic...
19:22 <@dmwaters> vapier: /urilith/fmccor as part of devrel... feedback/comments/yes/no?
19:22 <@slarti> yes
19:22 <@slarti> :)
19:22 <@plasmaroo> What would they be doing?
19:23 <@dmwaters> slarti: yes to all or
19:23 <@slarti> dmwaters: yeah, yes to all
19:23 <@slarti> plasmaroo: seeing as we're going to have a lot of slots free thanks to urilith's proposal, that's one thing, at the very least
19:23 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: well, fmccor  has unknowingly volonteered himself to help with the proposal, as has urilith since he wrote it:)
19:23 <@plasmaroo> Mhm, cool, vapier?
19:24 <@dmwaters> as for vapier  i honestly don't know
19:24 <@dmwaters> since vapier  hasn't kept up with devrel stuff, I'm a bit concerned
19:24 **** plasmaroo nods.
19:24 <@dmwaters> i thought that someone who was interested in devrel would be following it
19:24 <@plasmaroo> Mhm.
19:25 <+vapier> *shrug* i was under the impression that it wasnt set in stone until you got back to me
19:25 <@slarti> dmwaters: the mail notifying people that gentoo-devrel had been unstealthed was hidden deeply in a thread on -core somewhere
19:25 <@dmwaters> slarti: but it was braught up repeatedly later
19:25 <@slarti> (I think)
19:25 <@slarti> ah.
19:25 <@dmwaters> slarti: especially with the ciaranm stuff, that's how we got fmccor involved in the discussions:)
19:26 <@dmwaters> vapier: if you want to be involved in something, wouldn't you want to know what's going on  while you're waiting for a final decision/
19:26 <@cshields> dmwaters: he was waiting for you to talk to him about it all
19:27 <@cshields> dmwaters: can't fault him for that
19:27 <@plasmaroo> Yeah.
19:27 <@dmwaters> cshields: i'm not, i'm interested in taking him on, i just want to make sure that if he joins that he is active that's all
19:27 **** plasmaroo has no problem but people need to be doing something... otherwise there's no need to have them on...
19:27 <@ka0ttic> dmwaters: I say yes to all.  I don't think that's reason enough not to let him join.  If he does turn out to be inactive, does nothing, that's a different story
19:28 <@dmwaters> alright
19:29 <@dmwaters> vapier: fmccor  welcome to our world:)
19:29 <@dmwaters> urilith: looks to be active, i'll talk to him later
19:29 <@dmwaters> err, inactive...
19:30 <@dmwaters> fmccor: you're drafted to help with the proposal stuff:)
19:30 <@dmwaters> vapier: you still want to help with the handbook stuff?
19:30 <+fmccor> Fair enough.  That's what I sort of expected.
19:30 <@dmwaters> :)
19:31 <@ka0ttic> welcome aboard guys
19:31 <+vapier> yes
19:31 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o fmccor by dmwaters
19:31 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o vapier by dmwaters
19:31 <@plasmaroo> vapier: Welcome, let me know when you have docs changes/questions/whatever
19:31 <@vapier> be nice to incorporate a bunch of the sections from the unofficial guide
19:32 <@dmwaters> vapier: work with plasmaroo on it:)
19:32 <@plasmaroo> Nod, I'm tempted to just work on the unofficial one instead though.
19:32 <@dmwaters> vapier: he and astinus are doing most of the docs
19:32 <@plasmaroo> Since the GuideXML folks have already said they can't get funky-3000 grade highlighting going
19:32 :::: ferringb!~ferringb@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
19:32 <@dmwaters> ok, recruiting stuff
19:32 <@slarti> vapier: it's going to be easier from everyone's point of you if we just gentooify the html generation instead of putting it all in guidexml
19:32 <@ka0ttic> plasmaroo: if there's no objections, I'd like to continue contributing (I've already done several sections)
19:32 <@plasmaroo> ka0ttic: Of course.
19:33 <@plasmaroo> slarti: That too, but I kinda like it as it is.
19:33 <@plasmaroo> slarti: It's clear and unobsfucated right now...
19:33 <@ka0ttic> is it using ciaranm's build system still?
19:33 <@plasmaroo> Yah.
19:33 <@plasmaroo> CPU power isn't a problem.
19:33 <@slarti> plasmaroo: me too, but I want to make it as well-referenced as possible, which usually means official, which usually means gentooified :)
19:33 <@plasmaroo> slarti: Heh.
19:33 <@plasmaroo> slarti: We can start by removing the unofficial references, most of which I should have already uh, zapped.
19:34 <@dmwaters> ok
19:34 <@dmwaters> so
19:34 <@slarti> plasmaroo: does it parallelise?
19:34 <@dmwaters> most new dev bugs are dealt with
19:34 <@slarti> plasmaroo: hmm, I'm not sure about that
19:34 <@plasmaroo> slarti: I've been working on it.
19:34 <@dmwaters> accept a few that are assigned to jhuebel and eradicator that need to be dealt with
19:34 <@plasmaroo> slarti: Not yet, but some parts of it will. Others won't.
19:34 <@dmwaters> so
19:34 <@slarti> plasmaroo: okay. As long as we have svn history it's okay.
19:34 <@plasmaroo> slarti: It's on an SMP box so that'll fix things when I've fix0red the build system.
19:35 <@plasmaroo> slarti: It's in a svn repo. No history for the past, but we don't really need it either.
19:35 <@dmwaters> i want to take on 2 new recruiters to be on the safe side, lift the freeze, and put out a call to see if we can get new devs to help the projects that are on staffing needs
19:35 <@kingtaco|laptop> ??
19:35 <@dmwaters> comments?
19:35 <@plasmaroo> We still have 17 bugs.
19:35 <@kingtaco|laptop> oh, I thought we were meeting on thursday
19:35 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: no, today.
19:35 <@kingtaco|laptop> oh
19:35 <@kingtaco|laptop> my bad
19:35 <@plasmaroo> Once we get those sorted, and/or if that involves getting more people, sure.
19:35 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: 17 bugs, but they're all taken
19:35 <@plasmaroo> Excellent.
19:36 <@ka0ttic> I'll close 1 definitely today, the other probably not since he hasnt responded to my ping yet
19:36 <@dmwaters> so
19:36 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +vv ferringb kloeri_ by dmwaters
19:36 <@slarti> open floor party!
19:36 <@dmwaters> seemant suggest ferringb  and kloeri_ as new recruiters, thoughts?
19:36 <@dmwaters> slarti: not yet:)
19:36 <@seemant> sure @ ferringb
19:36 <@dmwaters> slarti: it's justnot nice to talk about them if they can't talk:)
19:37 <@slarti> dmwaters: ah, I see
19:37 <@ka0ttic> seemant++
19:37 <+kloeri_> scary but I guess I've been slowly working way in that direction by recruiting lots of new devs :)
19:37 <@ka0ttic> take that as a yes
19:37 <@slarti> well, I agree with seemant if they're willing
19:37 <@ka0ttic> kloeri_ would be excellent.  he was an excellent mentor
19:37 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: time is the main issue
19:37 <@dmwaters> it takes it's fair share of time
19:38 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: but it's not that bad long as we dont get backlogged
19:38 <@ka0ttic> you spend more time waiting than anything else tbh
19:38 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: partially true:)
19:38 <+kloeri_> yeah, time is my only worry really but I'm soon getting a lot of help with the bugday stuff and the alpha team is expanding a lot as well
19:39 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: well, it's your call:)
19:39 <@seemant> no it's not, it's my call
19:39 <@seemant> I say yes
19:39 <@dmwaters> seemant++
19:39 <+kloeri_> I'm sorta shifting responsibilities around a bit but I don't think I should have any problems
19:39 <+kloeri_> guess I accept :)
19:39 <@slarti> ferringb: ?
19:39 <@dmwaters> muhahahaha! another victim to add to the list!
19:40 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o kloeri_ by dmwaters
19:40 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: see now it's too late to escape:)
19:40 <@slarti> dmwaters: want me to do the lark-fu? I've got a shell open at the moment
19:40 <+ferringb> err
19:40 <@kloeri_> heh :)
19:40 <+ferringb> slarti: eh?
19:40 <@dmwaters> ferringb: scroll up:)
19:40 <@dmwaters> slarti: no, infra has to do some special majic to recruiters to make them work
19:40 <@kloeri_> ferringb: you're being volunteered as a recruiter
19:40 <@dmwaters> ferringb: blame seemant:)
19:41 <@slarti> dmwaters: besides adding them to the groups? mmkay, right you are
19:41 **** dmwaters grins at seemant
19:41 <+ferringb> oh wow.  I really choose the wrong time to pop my head in to irc, eh? :)
19:41 <@dmwaters> muhahahahaha!
19:42 <+ferringb> would if I could, but you'd be running the risk of having the ball dropped on new recruits at this point.
19:42 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
19:42 **** dmwaters nods
19:42 <+ferringb> I don't even have internet at home fex, plus I'm looking to move in the near future...
19:42 <@spyderous> many balls have been dropped on them already, a few more wouldn't hurt much. =P
19:42 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
19:42 <@dmwaters> spyderous: you're evil:)
19:42 <@dmwaters> but, true
19:42 **** ferringb nods, 'cept I don't like to be the one screwing up :)
19:42 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: You're getting what this place is :P
19:43 <+ferringb> I screw up enough as is
19:43 <@dmwaters> but, I'd prefer someone active:)
19:43 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Uh, Forgetting
19:43 <@kingtaco|laptop> heh
19:43 <@spyderous> that's why i had to quit, too many falling objects
19:43 <@plasmaroo> Hahaha.
19:43 <@dmwaters> heh
19:43 <@spyderous> lunchtime, bbiab
19:43 <@dmwaters> seemant: who was the other you suggested?
19:44 **** dmwaters can't remember
19:44 <@seemant> can't remember
19:44 <@dmwaters> haha
19:44 <@dmwaters> hmm
19:44 <@dmwaters> k
19:44 <@dmwaters> so
19:45 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: i'll get with you after meeting:)
19:45 **** dmwaters thinks
19:45 <@dmwaters> i'm missing something on the adjenda
19:45 <@seemant> oh kugelfang was teh third, but you said he's already refused
19:46 <@kloeri_> dmwaters: sure
19:46 <@dmwaters> oh
19:46 <@dmwaters> are there any objections to advertising the staffing needs page a bit and possibley getting plate to stick it in the gwn?
19:47 <@seemant> not from me
19:47 <@kingtaco|laptop> kug refused?
19:47 <@kingtaco|laptop> he was interested in becoming a recruiter a couple of weeks ago
19:47 <@dmwaters> was he?
19:47 <@kingtaco|laptop> yea
19:47 <@dmwaters> i thought he said he didn't have time
19:47 <@kingtaco|laptop> when I joined uop
19:47 <@kingtaco|laptop> I think so
19:47 <@kingtaco|laptop> I can talk to him if you want
19:47 <@dmwaters> i'll talk to him again
19:48 <@dmwaters> i also might have the wrong person, i keep getting him and beu confused, don't ask me why
19:48 <@kingtaco|laptop> heh
19:48 <@dmwaters> ok
19:48 <@dmwaters> seemant: you might be able to help answer this
19:49 <@dmwaters> dostrow wanted to bring up what devrel does about technical problems, like someone repeatedly breaking the tree.
19:50 <@dmwaters> in the  past, most of that seems to be handled by managers, and we were to stay out of stuff like that
19:50 <@dmwaters> but, dostrow seems to think that that should fall under us as well
19:50 <@dmwaters> this was put off last week do to the metastructure vote
19:50 <@slarti> oh, crap
19:50 <@slarti> laggy ssh connection, just hit enter straight through superadduser so the new account was locked
19:51 <@dmwaters> nice
19:51 <@seemant> dmwaters: I think that's where we need to then divide devrel up then
19:51 <@dmwaters> seemant: hm?
19:51 <@seemant> like one enforcement wing one recruitment wing
19:51 <@seemant> keep them separate
19:51 <@kingtaco|laptop> thats a waste of peoples time I thin
19:51 <@kingtaco|laptop> +k
19:51 <@seemant> time, how?
19:52 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: not really
19:52 <@kingtaco|laptop> you are involving more people
19:52 <@slarti> kingtaco|laptop: I don't see how that's true
19:52 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: long as recruiters don't act as judges, i think it's fine
19:52 <@dmwaters> however
19:52 <@dmwaters> a big chunk of devrel is made up of recruiters
19:53 **** ka0ttic reads buffer
19:53 <@ka0ttic> you guys talk a lot
19:53 <@dmwaters> heh
19:53 <@plasmaroo> ka0ttic: It's called a meeting ;)
19:53 <@ka0ttic> kloeri_: welcome aboard
19:53 <@kloeri_> thanks ka0ttic :)
19:53 <@ka0ttic> plasmaroo: oh is that today!?!?
19:53 <@dmwaters> ka0ttic: yes
19:53 <@ka0ttic> that was a joke :)
19:54 <@dmwaters> seemant: the way urilith's proposal is set up, we could sort of do that
19:54 <@seemant> dmwaters: yeah
19:54 <@dmwaters> seemant: but because we don't have huge amounts of people, i think it should be a bit flexible, like recruiters can investigate, just not decide
19:54 <@dmwaters> thoughts?
19:55 <@kingtaco|laptop> don't like it
19:55 <@plasmaroo> Me neither.
19:55 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: why
19:55 <@plasmaroo> Well, for a start, the original recruiter should be exempt.
19:55 <@seemant> I haven't thought this through, keep in mind, btw
19:55 <@kingtaco|laptop> I still assert that splitting up the roles will cause more time to be "wasted"
19:55 <@plasmaroo> As should any other recruiters that have dealt with said dev in the past.
19:56 <@dmwaters> seemant: nods
19:56 <@slarti> kingtaco|laptop: it's one of the strongest and most founded criticisms of devrel though
19:56 <@kingtaco|laptop> slarti, oh, I know that
19:56 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: well, those who are investigating should take people's past experiences into account, you would think
19:56 <@slarti> kingtaco|laptop: in practice, I think the split will be very quick
19:56 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes yes, but they need to be neutral?
19:56 <@kingtaco|laptop> so devrel judges arn't allowed to look for themselves?
19:56 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: i.e. They can speak to said people who have past experiences.
19:56 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: yeah, they do.
19:57 <@plasmaroo> But people with past experiences should not participate - instead, they get talked to by the investigators that are neutral.
19:57 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: aaah, i see what you  mean
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> that to me allows me(as a recruiter) to change the outcome of your(devrel) decisions
19:57 <@plasmaroo> Who then deal with them as with anybody else.
19:57 <@plasmaroo> Not as an investigator's decision, but rather as evidence.
19:57 <@plasmaroo> Right.
19:58 <+urilith> sorry im late, was sleeping
19:58 <+urilith> had a rough weekend
19:58 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
19:58 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o urilith by dmwaters
19:58 <@dmwaters> urilith: welcome to our world
19:58 <@kingtaco|laptop> I think it would be better if we kept things they way they are, but forced the managers to vote on weither the "sentence" for what we investigated is proper
19:58 <@dmwaters> well, as seemant said, he's not thought it through
19:59 <@dmwaters> we don't have to decide on it now
19:59 <@ka0ttic> yeah I'm in favor of waiting to decide
19:59 <@ka0ttic> definitely needs some more discussion
20:00 <@dmwaters> i still think we need to leave the technical side  till after the new metastructure is in place, and we need dostrow here to discuss it
20:00 <@dmwaters> but, he did add it to the adjenda, so:)
20:00 <@dmwaters> alright
20:00 <@dmwaters> so
20:00 <@fmccor> Technical side is a delicate issue, it seems to me, and requires careful thought.
20:00 <@dmwaters> we're a yes on urilith's proposal
20:01 <@dmwaters> urilith: you and i and fmccor need to sit down and make sure all details are included and pretty
20:01 <@urilith> okay
20:01 <@dmwaters> we're also a go for urilith, fmccor, spanky, and kloeri_  as new people
20:02 <@dmwaters> i'll find one more recruiter, and lift the freeze, and work on getting staffing needs advertised again
20:02 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: They are advertised.
20:02 <@dmwaters> anyone have anything else before i open it up for q/a?
20:02 <@plasmaroo> Oh, you mean to users?
20:02 **** plasmaroo gets ya.
20:02 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: where
20:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, talk to danny about that, I'm pretty sure he expressed interest
20:02 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: yes
20:02 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: will do
20:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> heh, even more amd64 devs in devrel
20:02 <@fmccor> I'd like to add one word to my 'delicate issue' comment.
20:03 <@ka0ttic> didnt someone say earlier he already refused? or are you talking about a different danny?
20:03 <@dmwaters> fmccor: which comment?
20:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> ka0ttic, kugelfang
20:04 <@kingtaco|laptop> ka0ttic, I think deedra may have had him confused with someone else
20:04 <@ka0ttic> ah ok
20:04 **** dmwaters is generally easily confused:p
20:04 <@ka0ttic> yeah he's a solid guy.  I'd be for him joining
20:05 <@plasmaroo> I don't know if he has the time.
20:05 <@plasmaroo> He's kinda busy with work-stuff :/
20:05 <@dmwaters> i'll talk to him.
20:05 <@dmwaters> worst he can say is  no
20:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> yeah
20:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> I support bringing in danny
20:05 <@dmwaters> fmccor: ?
20:06 <@fmccor> As to which? kugelfang? I've worked with him and think a lot of him.
20:06 <@dmwaters> fmccor: your comment you wanted to bring up
20:06 <@fmccor> As to 'technical issue'? OK:
20:07 <@dmwaters> nod
20:08 <@fmccor> Ideally, manager + developer should solve this sort of problem, so I think devrel involvement is called for only after that breaks down.  But I can argue both sides of this, and would like a discussion when dostrow is here to present his thoughts.
20:08 <@plasmaroo> Agreed.
20:08 <@dmwaters> fmccor++
20:09 <@dmwaters> anyone else before i open this up?
20:10 <@dmwaters> ok then.
20:10 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: -m by dmwaters
20:10 <@dmwaters> questions/comments before we close?
20:11 < tove> decruiters. any progress in removing unactive/missing devs?
20:11 <@dmwaters> tove: once this proposal stuff is settled, that's   the next thing i want to work on
20:12 <@dmwaters> tove: but right now, we don't really know unless we're told.
20:12 < tove> okay. so atm you're doing nothing?
20:12 < tomk> we wanted to know what you think about the forums glep proposal we posted to the devrel list
20:12 <@dmwaters> tove: we can work on that, or we can focus on the proposal, and right now the proposal is kinda important.
20:13 <@dmwaters> tomk: i haven't had time to look at it. as i've said i've been on vacation, and haven't had time to look at it. i told amne  i'd look at it this week.
20:13 < tove> another thing: staffing-needs: i think herds with only one dev should be watched more closely.
20:14 < tomk> we were just wondering if anyone had seen it and what they thought
20:14 <@dmwaters> tomk: i can't speak for anyone else in devrel, but that's what i told amne  about me.
20:14 <@dmwaters> tove:  explain
20:14 **** ferringb was wondering the same thing (re: watching single person herds)
20:15 **** dmwaters ...someone explain?:)
20:15 < tove> xemacs and lang-misc are actually unmaintained and the number of bugs assigned grows -- users get unhappy.
20:15 <@ka0ttic> btw guys can we get the recruiters page to have correct instructions for editing ~/.ssh/authorized_keys?  it needs to be rvim instead of vim
20:15 **** dmwaters prods plasmaroo
20:15 <+ferringb> tove: that's more then just a herd though, that's applicable to a couple of devs too
20:16 **** beu looks in
20:16 <@dmwaters> beu: hi
20:16 <@dmwaters> ferringb: are those single person herds on staffing needs?
20:16 < tove> ferringb: sure there are some missing devs with a number of open bugs.
20:16 < beu> dmwaters: lo :)
20:16 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes?
20:17 <@plasmaroo> ka0ttic: Lemme change.
20:17 <@urilith> heya beu
20:17 <@dmwaters> ferringb: if someone is willing to take responsibility for those herds, and mentor those new devs that apply, then they should step up, all incoming devs need mentors though
20:17 <@ka0ttic> plasmaroo: cool thanks
20:17 < tomk> if anyone wants to have a look it's here:
20:17 **** beu reads up
20:17 < beu> urilith: ! :D
20:18 <@plasmaroo> ka0ttic: Still the sudo bit, yah?
20:18 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: yes
20:18 <@ka0ttic> plasmaroo: yes
20:18 <@plasmaroo> ka0ttic: Done.
20:19 <@dmwaters> ferringb: we're open to suggestions if you've got any on how to deal with the single person herds..
20:19 <@dmwaters> ferringb: but in order to get people into them to help, we need people willing to mentor new people
20:19 < beu> wouldn't that be a job for the qa project (haven't read much of the background from tonight yet, tho) ?
20:20 <@dmwaters> ferringb: we're not exactly short on mentors though, heh
20:20 <@dmwaters> beu: i would think so.
20:20 <+ferringb> dmwaters: moreso just pointing out the single person herd thing is a subset of the larger problem
20:20 **** dmwaters wonders where the line between qa and devrel comes in with something like this
20:20 <+ferringb> hmm.  set of nasty queries for all known devs could give you feedback on if a dev is active bugzie wise or not.
20:21 < beu> there's not just single-person herds to deal with tho, there's herds with many members, and only one active dev (like perl) :/
20:21 <@spyderous> bugzilla isn't the only way to be active
20:21 <@spyderous> also need to check cvs logs
20:21 <@slarti> beu: we could have some kind of mentor pool
20:21 <+ferringb> spyderous: true, but the original question was in reference to bugroot for certain herds :)
20:21 < beu> slarti: that sounds familiar (last meeting ?)
20:21 <@slarti> i.e., willing mentors add their names to a list for the time when they are available, in return for scooby snacks or just crack
20:21 <@dmwaters> heh
20:21 <@plasmaroo> Hahaha.
20:22 < beu> lol
20:22 <@spyderous> root or rot?
20:22 <@dmwaters> slarti: i think from the impression i get that a lot of devs will mentor if 1 they have the time, and 2 if they're asked
20:22 <@spyderous> i think it's mostly a question of whether it's relevant to what they do
20:22 <@dmwaters> spyderous: that to
20:22 <@slarti> dmwaters: right. So we need to hang a carrot in front of their nose, because actively asking them is tough
20:23 <@spyderous> i wouldn't want to mentor some i18n guy
20:23 <@dmwaters> spyderous: but i've seen seemant mentor people who want to help, same with grant and pylon
20:23 < tove> for unactive devs: publish a short procedure when devrel will get active and what it means - mail the devs and ask what's up -- if they don't respond, mark them as gone, change herds.xml, metadata.xml, assigned bugs. in the end if necessary mask packages.
20:23 <@dmwaters> spyderous: slarti: but generally, those users are highly active, and have proven that they will do their work
20:23 <@kloeri_> I've mentored several devs that wasn't joining my 'territory' - worked pretty well afaik
20:24 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: ah, you to:)
20:24 <@spyderous> that's the exception, not the rule
20:24 <@dmwaters> tove: you're stepping into qa now
20:24 <@spyderous> people who will mentor anyone aren't people who need a carrot. they step up by themselves
20:24 <@dmwaters> tove: and while maybe devrel could find a way to help there, that's mostly qa
20:24 < tove> someone has to take the first step
20:24 <@dmwaters> spyderous: agreed
20:25 <@dmwaters> tove: but devrel doesn't need to get into qa, that's how we get slapped around
20:25 <@dmwaters> tove: i'm not sure my wording is really right
20:25 **** Astinus arrives back from work
20:25 <@Astinus> ka0ttic is right, you guys talk WAYYYY too much
20:25 <@plasmaroo> :)
20:25 <@dmwaters> Astinus: that's what you get for being late:p
20:26 <@spyderous> that's what we do; we're devrel
20:26 < zypher> technically there is some sort of qa in the making. but I think tove is looking for an organisational solution
20:26 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  If you wanna pay me, I accept credit cards, power or weaponry =)
20:26 <@spyderous> would you rather arbitrarily ban a few devs? i'm kinda bored. =P
20:26 <+ferringb> zypher: unless knew things are a foot, I'd wonder about the QA thing
20:26 <+ferringb> s:knew:new:
20:27 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  Regards your 'this is a QA issue' -- last I checked QA is pretty inactive, it's generally just Mr_Bones_ running around spanking people with his cluebat
20:27 **** ferringb would like to see QA get some teeth
20:27 < beu> and vapier, seement, ..
20:27 <@dmwaters> Astinus: then maybe qa needs people:)
20:27 < beu> heh
20:27 < tove> we all need people :)
20:27 < zypher> ferringb: swegener is working on some nice stuff
20:28 <@dmwaters> tove: we deal mainly with personal issues. if we step into technical that tends to create a lot of problems.
20:28 <+ferringb> dmwaters: not sure about that.  last few times I took a stab at enforcement of QA standards (as in, something was flat out fricking screwed up) there really wasn't any backing to force things to be corrected
20:28 <@Astinus> Well .. I think instead of splitting up DevRel in a way which requires more people, we need to consider getting QA better staffed and shift some tasks which DevRel is doing now across to QA
20:28 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
20:28 < zypher> xactly
20:28 <@Astinus> Okay, so we .. need to give QA the ability to cluebat assholes
20:28 <@plasmaroo> That also means you've got more separation.
20:28 < tove> dmwaters: rollcall says: "project has jurisdiction over the status of developers once they are activated by the Recruitment and Training subproject."
20:28 <@spyderous> and to get more staff, perhaps we should get better PR. so let's focus there
20:28 <@Astinus> spyderous: :P
20:28 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
20:28 <+ferringb> Astinus: agreed.
20:29 <@dmwaters> anyway...
20:29 <@dmwaters> can we close this down? I'm starving:p
20:29 <@Astinus> tove:  That's all well and good, except when the project is one person, or the project has a shit manager.
20:29 <@dmwaters> :)
20:29 <@Astinus> tove: Overall responsibility should remain with QA, which needs cluebat ability, and needs to be staffed by clones of Mr_Bones_ :P
20:29 < beu> ;)
20:30 <@Astinus> For the record, Mr_Bones_ scares me, and that's a good thing for QA ;)
20:30 **** Astinus mutters about meticulous BOFHs on ebuild-roids.
20:30 <@plasmaroo> Mmmm, tastey.
20:30 <@urilith> beu: pm... ;)
20:30 <@dmwaters> ok....
20:31 **** ferringb makes a mental note to harass Astinus when next time he runs a src_uri scan... :P
20:31 **** Astinus agrees with dmwaters on ending the meeting
20:31 <@dmwaters> we're done...:)
20:31 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: bag and tag..:)
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