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To: gentoo-devrel@g.o
From: Tim Yamin <plasmaroo@g.o>
Subject: 20050727 Meeting Log
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:19:09 +0100
Attached.
01:00 <@jhuebel> Let's make this a short meeting, so we don't keep our overseas friends awake any longer than we have to. :-)
01:00 <@plasmaroo> Right.
01:00 <@plasmaroo> Ok, let's get started.
01:00 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo
01:00 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo
01:00 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo
01:00 <@fmccor> agreed
01:00 <@plasmaroo> Hm, nice lag.
01:00 **** jhuebel lurches..
01:01 <@plasmaroo> Ok, I believe we're here to discuss as to how we're going to handle Ciaran's return and to also discuss how to avoid what's happened.
01:01 <@plasmaroo> ... from happening again.
01:01 <@plasmaroo> So, does anybody have anything specific they'd like to raise?
01:01 **** `Kumba doesn't
01:02 <@plasmaroo> Ok, maybe not then.
01:02 <@fmccor> I think first line of control really needs to be the (line) manager(s), as in a business.
01:02 <@jhuebel> Well, let's talk about procedure for bringing him back in.
01:02 <@plasmaroo> Right.
01:02 <@plasmaroo> First of all, I believe `Kumba is willing to be responsible as a mentor for his return?
01:03 <+`Kumba> yup, either me or Weeve
01:03 <@plasmaroo> Or both?
01:03 **** jhuebel nods.
01:03 <@fmccor> Both, I think, is better.
01:03 <@plasmaroo> Agreed, you'd both have opinions on the subject.
01:03 <@fmccor> That way he's covered in both architectures in which he works.
01:03 <@kloeri_> nod
01:03 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
01:04 <@plasmaroo> Ok, procedure.
01:04 <@fmccor> Unfortunately, Weeve is on vacation and unrepresented.
01:04 <@plasmaroo> I assume that as of his return his behaviour would have to agree to our etiquette policy.
01:04 <@jhuebel> Well, let's assume that Weeve will be co-mentoring.
01:04 <@plasmaroo> Right.
01:04 <@fmccor> Yes,
01:05 <@plasmaroo> And what should the route be if that is violated?
01:05 <@jhuebel> Yeah, he has to agree to the etiquette policy before full reinstatement.
01:05 <+`Kumba> probablem with making ciaranm adhere to any "etiquette", is the same has to apply to all others.
01:05 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: The idea is it does...
01:05 <@KingTaco> hrm
01:05 <@fmccor> True,
01:05 <+`Kumba> if he sees himself being singled out for special treatment, he'll lapse back into his old self rather quickly
01:06 <@fmccor> But it doesn't, really. (seem to apply)
01:06 <@plasmaroo> Ok, also are we going to place anything to happen if he goes back to his old self?
01:06 <@plasmaroo> Say, abuse at other developers in #gentoo-dev.
01:06 <+`Kumba> etiquette for me is something not defined by strict rules, but more by the attitude of a society and what that society supports and doesn't support
01:06 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Agreed.
01:06 <@ribosome> Yet we must expect him not to have changed his style during the time of his suspension since he believes that suspension was unjustified.
01:06 <@fmccor> Point is the one eredicator raised Sunday, it's a matter of showing some level of respect.
01:07 <@plasmaroo> Right.
01:07 <@plasmaroo> So how he treats other developers should be taken into consideration during his mentoring period.
01:07 <@KingTaco> based on that log from the other night, I don't think he's changed one bit
01:07 <@plasmaroo> And if he hasn't changed and is still abusive we should probably reconsider before cutting his leash.
01:07 <+`Kumba> depends on the abuse as well.  We obviously don't want to nail him to the wall for the minorest of infractions as well
01:08 <@plasmaroo> Of course.
01:08 <@plasmaroo> Also, how are we going to handle complaints.
01:08 <@fmccor> ribosome, In #gentoo-sparc the last few days, except for one instance, he's been OK.  I think the Sunday incident was based on a misunderstanding; `Kumba was there, too, and might have insight.
01:08 <+`Kumba> as for respect, I can verify he does give your respect, he just has a rather high threshold to meet before he gives it out
01:08 <@plasmaroo> If we get complaints within the thirty days I assume they need to be fully handled before he is fully reinstated as such?
01:08 <+`Kumba> s/your/you/
01:09 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: depends on the complaints, and from who the complaints are filed
01:09 <@kloeri_> plasmaroo: I'd assume so
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01:09 <@fmccor> That makes some si]ense ... Like `Kumba said.
01:09 <@fmccor> Er, sense
01:09 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Why does the complainant matter? I'd be more interested in maybe the relationship of complainant with Ciaran in the past rather than who it is.
01:10 <@plasmaroo> (Or is that what you have in mind?)
01:10 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: all complaints need to be investigated, but the individual filing the complaint adversely affects the credibility
01:10 <@fmccor> Well, some complaints are just nonsense; e.g., the dig he took at eradicator in the form of complaint.
01:10 <+`Kumba> if a high-level dev like seemant lodges one, that's going to carry far more weight than one from a love-sources user/maintainer
01:10 <@plasmaroo> Agreed... but, that would be for the investigators and judges to decide of course.
01:10 <@fmccor> And that can go the other way.
01:11 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, thats the problem
01:11 <@plasmaroo> In a way it is.
01:11 :::: jhuebel_!~jhuebel@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
01:11 <@fmccor> So long as we don't get mired down in procedure;
01:11 <+`Kumba> I can imagine there are some users who will not be thrilled to see his return, and will make it their duty to report every minor infraction he says or does
01:11 <@KingTaco> you shouldn't have to be seemant to be able to convers with him
01:11 <@plasmaroo> Since he could start alienating a specific user group rather than say, devs.
01:11 <@ribosome> Speaking of which, we must take into consideration the fact that some devs are likely not to show him the respect he deserves.
01:11 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: That also.
01:12 <+`Kumba> I think one thing tricky about ciaranm, is he plays with words
01:12 <@plasmaroo> Yeah.
01:12 <+`Kumba> he says one thing, but means something else sometimes
01:12 <@KingTaco> Is it any more acceptable to call someone in #gentoo a "complete bitch" than it is to call deedra it?
01:12 <@plasmaroo> The problem we've always had is drawing the line.
01:12 <+`Kumba> and that's not an easy thing to discern over a text medium
01:12 <@fmccor> No, it's worse.
01:12 <@dmwaters> sorry for being late, but i'm here
01:12 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Agreed.
01:12 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Right now we're talking over at how complaints need to be handled.
01:13 <@SeJo> hang on all
01:13 <@fmccor> I am much more likely to get upset over alienating users no matter how silly they are being than by seeing devs fight.
01:13 <@SeJo> I don't agree a "lower" dev, how in earth are we going to mesure that?
01:13 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: So would I... it means more damage to our community since it's a direct hit rather than users seeing devs do their things.
01:13 <@KingTaco> so, the person complaining about his shit doesn't matter
01:13 <@KingTaco> if he's a love user or not
01:13 <@SeJo> indeed
01:14 <@plasmaroo> Well, one thing we need to keep in mind.
01:14 <@plasmaroo> We fired brad_mssw for direct abuse through a private forums post.
01:14 <@KingTaco> if you can't be decent to people, then keep your damn mouth shut
01:14 <@fmccor> KingTaco, You can ignore a user without insulting him.
01:14 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: I heard about that, but not the details
01:14 <@SeJo> a complaint is a complaint, nomatter who filed it, it's the complaint itself that should matter
01:14 <@KingTaco> fmccor, I do it all the time
01:14 <@dmwaters> we fired brad_mssw for several things but that was the last straw
01:14 <@plasmaroo> Right.
01:14 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Hence why I said it would be up to the judges to decide.
01:14 <+`Kumba> KingTaco: it depends on how you define decency
01:15 <@dmwaters> brad_mssw was fired for behavior that was in a sense less worse then ciaranm's.
01:15 <@plasmaroo> What we need to make clear is that every complaint will get handled.
01:15 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, thats what we should be talking about
01:15 <@SeJo> that is true
01:15 <@KingTaco> I don'tsee why ciaranm should get an special treatment(better or worse) than anyone else
01:15 <@avenj> brad was definitely less damaging overall than ciaran as far as alienating devs goes, but ciaran made a lot more friends also
01:15 <@plasmaroo> Agreed.
01:15 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: i think it might be handy to set up a list off possible wrongdoings and link a sanction ot it
01:15 <@avenj> i'd prefer he was on a short leash.
01:15 <@KingTaco> he gets a second chance, and blows it, then he's the one who fucked up
01:16 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: There'd be a problem. He'd pick the one not on the list.
01:16 <@fmccor> Many can get resolved without invoking all the procedure --- see the recent go-around between anarchy and someone.
01:16 <@SeJo> that way it's clear to all what happens when x does y
01:16 <@avenj> fmccor: only if the dev is interested in resolving it
01:16 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: What avenj said.
01:16 <@avenj> fmccor: ciaran has specfically stated repeatedly that he's not interested in resolving things peaceably because he thinks it's ineffective.
01:16 <@dmwaters> anarchy was willing to fix his problem.
01:16 <@fmccor> avenj, That's part of being a dev, I think,
01:16 <@ribosome> All complaints, I think, should be treated the same, and the same goes for all devs.
01:16 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: that's why we need to make a complete list
01:16 <@kloeri_> SeJo: you can't make a list of all wrong doings..
01:17 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Wouldn't sanctions be for judges to decide, anyway?
01:17 <@SeJo> no we can't but we can make a overall list
01:17 <@dmwaters> ribosome: however, if the dev is willing to correct the problem re: anarchy, then it should not go through investigation etc
01:17 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: not if they are written down
01:17 <+`Kumba> one idea to consider is asking him to limit where he goes.  If we can keep him from venturing into #gentoo or onto specific forums, we might isolate a number of possible conflicts before they ever happen
01:17 <@ribosome> dmwaters: Sure
01:17 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Agreed. Maybe we should not list him as a dev on the forums until he's proved his maturity?
01:17 <+`Kumba> like I said in my email, ciaranm's like anti-matter at times.  Extremely volatile in the wrong environment
01:18 <@fmccor> Yes.
01:18 <@plasmaroo> So if he rants, it's as himself, not as a dev.
01:18 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: but are you and weeve willing to enforce it.
01:18 <@fmccor> He should not seek out people he believes to be idiots.
01:18 <@plasmaroo> Sorry, my connection just dropped out for a moment.
01:18 **** dmwaters nods at fmccor
01:18 <@plasmaroo> Miss anything but dmwaters and fmccor?
01:19 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: we can't enforce restrictions on where he can and cannot go.  The best we can do is respectfully request he steer clear of those channels
01:19 <@fmccor> No
01:19 <@SeJo> that won't help, he'll only complain about censor
01:19 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: ok, let me word it like this if he blatently disrespects the guidelines we put in place, will the 2 of you deal with it
01:19 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: If we don't reinstate him fully, we're asking for additional problems by frustrating him.
01:19 <@plasmaroo> How about we warn him that if we get complaints from forums or say #gentoo they will be dealt with more harshly since he's been warned of the consequences?
01:19 <+`Kumba> I stay out of #gentoo precisely for reasons of avoiding people who ask dumb questions, because I'm likely, depending on mood, to retort a sarcastic comment that could be taken the wrong way
01:19 <@kloeri_> agreed - he's been ranting for a long time about not being allowed to talk about love-sources etc.
01:20 <+`Kumba> well, love-sources is its own topic
01:20 <@SeJo> it's not to the point i think, we have a dev no matter what dev that needs to stick to the guidelines
01:20 <+`Kumba> I don't think you'll find a single dev who will openly support that project.  It's one of those "privately, we'll joke about it, but publicly try to be tactful"
01:21 <@dostrow> sorry I'm late I'm here now......family issues
01:21 <@SeJo> we never listed any sanction to those guidelines or only very generally
01:21 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Which is what Ciaran fails (IMO) to do.
01:21 <@SeJo> re dostrow
01:21 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: No, we never list sanctions, merely that they exist. If we start listing sanctions people will bend them.
01:22 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: agreed
01:22 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: he's not the only one.  We joke about it frequently in the mips channel, but we do so knowing most people there dislike it, so the atmosphere is more...accepting to what we say
01:22 <@kloeri_> `Kumba: agreed - I was just pointing out that he turned seemants request to be a bit more tactful into censorship
01:22 <+`Kumba> -dev is different, however
01:22 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: well now we aren't even setting guidelines, we are just focussing on one dev, like we did the last 6 months
01:22 <@ribosome> And'll they compare it endlessly to find a loophole to their advantage.
01:22 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yes, but you joke and are more tactful... not rant in public places.
01:22 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: we're just drifting
01:22 :::: jhuebel!~jhuebel@... has quit: Nick collision from services.
01:22 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: Agreed.
01:23 <@SeJo> ribosome: they always will, look at all justices over the world
01:23 <@fmccor> That's the thing --- exercise some common sense.
01:23 <@SeJo> even when we don't set guidelines
01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: That's the problem.
01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: He'll say it's too harsh.
01:23 <@SeJo> fmccor: problem there for some
01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Or based on 'bad claims'
01:23 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: the question though, is does ciaranm rant because he has a valid complaint against love- that he can back up with facts, or does he do it to lay a trap for the maintainers and users to walk into?
01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Or that he /meant/ it to be a joke
01:23 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I think it's tainted to the latter.
01:23 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: He has the former but isn't expressing it as such, he expresses it as the latter.
01:24 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: agreed, and the problem is, the maintainers and users walk right into it
01:24 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, Sometimes he does --- his humor can be a little rough.
01:24 <@ribosome> In any case, these problems are not common, so we'll have a hard time building a list based on solid experience. Given the number of cases we get, they all differ.
01:24 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yup.
01:24 <@avenj> love-sources is irrelevant anyway, it's not his opinions that're the problem per se, it's his presentation method
01:24 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Sometimes, yes, at other times it's abusive sarcasm.
01:24 <@plasmaroo> avenj: Exactly.
01:24 <@avenj> he wants to make it out to be devrel suppressing his opinions
01:24 <@fmccor> Well, yes.
01:24 :::: jhuebel_!~jhuebel@... has quit: Client Quit
01:24 <@plasmaroo> Same thing applies to OpenSolaris and whatever
01:24 <@kloeri_> avenj: right
01:25 <@SeJo> not true the people in devrel
01:25 <+`Kumba> the source of OS I think is fear of another macos fiasco
01:25 <@dostrow> `Kumba: love- as an aside...cuz what he says is valid it's just tactless cuz he knows the maintainer and it's followers can be baited...in reality alot of his complaints are valid...it's just his delivery that sucks
01:25 <@SeJo> he takes everything very personal
01:25 <+`Kumba> i.e., sudden import of massive tree changes w/o proper error checking
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01:25 <+`Kumba> dostrow: I think it's not that his delivery "sucks", it's just "raw"
01:25 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: That's the thing - he expresses himself right on the big things, which people agree on.
01:26 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: On the smaller things where he has more personal opinions he's just too inflammatory.
01:26 <@plasmaroo> For about 97.5% of people's tastes.
01:26 <+`Kumba> he doesn't attempt to layer it in a candy coating palpable to people who are more resistant
01:26 <@dostrow> what I would honestly like to see is us trying to deal with some of his previous complaints (the valid ones) to make it clear that he still has a voice so long as he abides by the rules
01:27 <@ribosome> SeJo: Indeed. And that would be a good practical reason to treat him like any other developer upon his return. (In addition to fairness considerations.)
01:27 <@fmccor> dostrow, good idea.
01:27 <@avenj> `Kumba: i state my opinions straightforwardly without being abrasive
01:27 <@SeJo> ribosome: i've always treated him the same, honest but correct
01:27 <+`Kumba> avenj: as I can as well
01:27 <@ribosome> SeJo: Sorry, wasn't refering to you.
01:27 <@SeJo> ribosome: i don't have anything against him personally only the fact that he keeps on pushing the limit
01:28 <@ribosome> SeJo: It was just a general remark.
01:28 <@avenj> `Kumba: in fact, ciaran jumps all over me precisely because of that; my comments in agreement with him on pvdabeel's little side projects turned into me making serious allegations of drug use
01:28 <@SeJo> ribosome: och sorry
01:28 <@SeJo> avenj: which perhaps wasn't the right person to say to afterwards :-)
01:28 <@avenj> he's quite intent on making life difficult for anyone he sees as being opposed to him in any way
01:28 <+`Kumba> avenj: I must've missed that, so I likely can't comment on how that derailed
01:29 <@avenj> SeJo: i don't have a problem stating my opinions publicly
01:29 <@SeJo> avenj: i know, but he took advantage off it, at least tried
01:29 <@dmwaters> ok guys
01:29 <@dmwaters> let's back up a minute
01:29 <@dmwaters> i can't follow 5 conversations at once, so let's try and put some order to this
01:29 <@SeJo> problem is simple are we going to keep on walking on our toes and making special rules and facts just for one person?
01:29 <@SeJo> ok sorry
01:30 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: We can't...
01:30 <+`Kumba> SeJo: we can't, or we wind up in an infinite loop
01:30 <@plasmaroo> That's why investigating each thing by itself is the *only* way.
01:30 <@avenj> i don't care about the procedural point of view, that's for the devrel conflict resolution/disciplinary types to deal with. all i know is as a dev he makes me not want to be here :)
01:30 <@dmwaters> the purpose of this meeting is to deal with ciaranm specificly, because when he returns, there's the potential for a lot of problems
01:30 <@avenj> bbl
01:31 <+`Kumba> especially once he reveals p3's existence
01:31 <@SeJo> dmwaters: there lies a problem in my eyes
01:31 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: How? Write procedure and it'll be bent... you've already seen that happen.
01:31 <+`Kumba> or 'palus' as he now calls it
01:31 <@SeJo> palus?
01:31 <@dmwaters> SeJo: wait a minute.
01:31 <+`Kumba> C++ rewrite of portage
01:31 <+`Kumba> complete rewrite
01:31 <@dmwaters> we're not here to deal with how complaints are handled right now
01:31 <@dmwaters> that was put in the policy that's now on the website.
01:31 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: We're here to ensure the manner in which they will be handled.
01:32 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Not how. But that they will be handled sorta thing.
01:32 <@dostrow> I'm going to be dropping in and out...stuff to deal with...bbiaf
01:32 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: if we want a 24 hour debate on complaints then we can have that for another meeting.
01:32 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes, but we have to agree that they'll get handled.
01:33 <@plasmaroo> Not how, but that they actually will.
01:33 <@SeJo> dmwaters: the way i see it, is that we are here to try to come up with a today's special for handling ciaranm right?
01:33 <@plasmaroo> Otherwise, he's more or less on a cut leash.
01:33 <@dmwaters> the simple fact about complaints and how they're handled or what ever you want to call it is that knowone is going to completely agree on 1 right way.
01:33 <@ribosome> The thing is, I don't see why his writting p3 (or palus) should matter at all. If it upsets a dev, that's his problem.
01:33 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: Agreed on that.
01:34 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, dmwaters: Didn't we start out by agreeing that
01:34 <+`Kumba> ribosome: as much as pile of inert barrels of gas shouldn't invariably and spontaneously explode, there is always some yahoo smoking near them
01:34 <@fmccor> Kumba and weeve were first line
01:34 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: I think I asked whether we would and then our discussion expanded, heh.
01:34 **** fmccor can't type
01:35 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Unfortunate.
01:35 <@fmccor> I thought `Kumba agreed?
01:35 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: That was regarding him being the contact.
01:35 <@dmwaters> fmccor: i'm not sure what you're asking. all i know is that were here to deal with ciaranm specificly.
01:35 <@fmccor> dmwaters, Yes, that's what I was addressing, as for handling complaints.
01:35 <@SeJo> deal with him like any returning dev
01:35 <+`Kumba> ribosome: there's always the possibility, ciaranm posts on the forums about palus, some user retorts "C++ Sucks!", and ciaranm goes about "correcting" the user with a lecture that not only explains every possible fallacy of python versus C++, but also insults the user in colourful ways
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01:36 <@SeJo> follow up and check every complaint, and keep it public
01:36 <+`Kumba> 10 goto 20; 20 goto 10
01:36 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: ribosome  can we stick to 1 conversation at a time please.
01:36 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yup.
01:36 <@dmwaters> SeJo:
01:36 <@plasmaroo> Ok, we also need to agree on a cut-off point of some sort, or who that'll be decided by.
01:36 <@plasmaroo> If he totally flips his lid, what would the process there be?
01:37 <@plasmaroo> Since as Jason put it, he's effectively one step from being fired.
01:37 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: totally flips his lid being an event similar to the -core posting that snowballed all of this?
01:37 <@fmccor> As published, like for anyone else.
01:37 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Sure.
01:37 <@urilith> whatd i miss? sorry im late
01:37 <@urilith> i was fighting with an install
01:37 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Thirty minutes of rambling.
01:37 <@plasmaroo> urilith: :P
01:37 <@urilith> okay, then doesnt sound like i missed much :)
01:37 <@SeJo> fmccor: in fact if we did that he would be fired now, you don't insult fellow devs not the way he did on -core
01:37 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: No, the problem is there is nothing published.
01:38 <@dmwaters> i think it's more of if we keep getting constant complaints about him, they get dumped on kumba and weeve, and the complaints don't stop, what do we do?
01:38 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: It's totally gray in that respect. And if Ciaran flips it, we'll quite possibly need action /fast/
01:38 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: That too.
01:38 <@plasmaroo> So if he doesn't change, or flips it.
01:39 <@plasmaroo> Worst case scenario hold a vote on it, heh?
01:39 <@fmccor> kumba or weeve can escallate.
01:39 <@SeJo> we pull the plug
01:39 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: To where?
01:39 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: At what point?
01:39 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: first serious offence
01:39 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: That's what we're trying to loosely define.
01:39 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, to devrel, at their discretion.
01:39 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Would this be the judges or devrel as a whole?
01:39 <@SeJo> serious offence = against the guidelines
01:39 <@plasmaroo> If it's the judges don't we need an investigation?
01:39 <@urilith> devrel as a whole id suspect
01:40 <@plasmaroo> Ok.
01:40 <@urilith> then the investigation happens, then the judges decide whether or not its valid
01:40 <@urilith> which is what the procedure outlined
01:40 <@SeJo> i think devrel as a whole should judge
01:40 <@urilith> well, if we sidestep the procedure
01:40 <@dmwaters> fmccor: yes, but thing is, and no offense `Kumba , but if kumba considders them all stupid complaints and does nothing but they still roll in we need to finally say "ok, they're not doing anything/not effective, we need to do something"
01:40 <@urilith> we just repeat the whole thing over again
01:40 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Agreed.
01:40 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Yeah, 10 goto 20; 20 goto 10 all over again.
01:40 <@fmccor> dmwaters, I am inclined to trust Kumba's and Weeve's judgment on that.
01:41 <@plasmaroo> urilith: See, the thing is, he's going to end up making his attacks so something like this happens.
01:41 <@plasmaroo> Then we spend another two months changing procedure.
01:41 **** SeJo feels like whatever is descided in here it will get bashed on with the first problem that occurs
01:41 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Heh, yeah :/
01:41 <@dmwaters> fmccor: and we trusted ciaranm, and dealt with 6 months of bullshit
01:41 <@fmccor> And an investigation in this specific scdnario is pretty simple, because everything is happening before us.
01:41 <@urilith> if we stick to the procedure already there
01:41 <@urilith> we have something to defend ourselves with
01:41 <@SeJo> urilith: nope we don't, he'll bend it
01:41 <@urilith> if we sidestep the publised procedure, we go back to square one that started everything to begin with
01:41 <@plasmaroo> urilith: No, there's a problem. Procedure is for one off things. It's doesn't have a cut-off point for repeated events.
01:42 <@plasmaroo> urilith: That's why I'm asking everybody about this.
01:42 <@dmwaters> fmccor: i trust kumba and weeve as well, but we also need a line
01:42 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Exactly.
01:42 <+`Kumba> I'll likely base any complaints against what I saw in the bug opened on ciaranm
01:42 <@ribosome> urilith: Agreed.
01:42 <@SeJo> let's say 3 investigations should be more then sufficient to say he won't change
01:42 <+`Kumba> and compare and contrast there
01:42 <@dmwaters> fmccor: if ciaranm comes back and we get a shitload of complaints over the next 2 months and they're all vallid i think there's something wrong
01:42 <@SeJo> in my eyes third occurance is the last one
01:43 <@plasmaroo> Ok, anybody have any problems accepting that? Three valid complaints and you're out?
01:43 <@fmccor> dmwaters, sure.  That's why as someone said a while ago, everything needs to be evaluated.
01:43 <@plasmaroo> And by valid I mean valid. Not one-off remarks.
01:43 <@plasmaroo> But say, a vendetta against somebody.
01:43 <@dmwaters> SeJo: that's just it, there's also the fact that ciaranm's already been suspended the next step in policy is for him to be fired, while i realize people diserve chances, he's already had several.
01:43 <@plasmaroo> Or, continuos antagonism/harassment/abuse.
01:44 <@SeJo> first offence = suspension 1 month, 2nd offence = 2 months, 3d = fired
01:44 <@kloeri_> no problem if they are serious complaints..
01:44 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, take some care; a vendetta can work the other way --- some one or several out to get ciaranm
01:44 <@SeJo> dmwaters: ddin't we agree that we wouldn't do anything special for ciaran?
01:44 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Suspending him again won't help.
01:44 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: In which case Ciaran files a complaint.
01:44 <@SeJo> well if it's his third , he'll get fired
01:44 <@jhuebel> Technically, suspending him already hasn't helped.
01:44 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: Why isn't that up to the judges? Cases could be very different. I would fire someone immediately in some cases...
01:44 <@jhuebel> But we have to give him another chance anyway.
01:44 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: That's what I asked about a while ago. We got no agreement.
01:44 <@plasmaroo> Ok.
01:44 <@fmccor> ribosome, I agree with that.
01:45 <@SeJo> ribosome: that's why i think there should be at list a list off serious offenses
01:45 <@plasmaroo> Also let's agree that if the judges agree on a firing, that will happen.
01:45 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: no matter what management says?
01:45 <@jhuebel> SeJo: Not practical, really.
01:45 <@plasmaroo> And that in such a scenario, it's goto jail, don't collect $200, don't pass Go.
01:45 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: That comes afterwards.
01:45 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: i gather the sencencing was left to the leads, if i'm not mistaken. the judges just decide guilty or not.
01:45 <@ribosome> Sejo: hum... Sounds reasonable. Some things ought to have you fired at once.
01:45 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, That is a dangerous commitment.
01:46 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: It is, but so is any other commitment we've ever made.
01:46 <@SeJo> jhuebel: nothing is practical in this scenario, but there is no other way IMO
01:46 <@jhuebel> SeJo: Fair enough.
01:46 <@plasmaroo> So, as it stands we're on:
01:46 <@jhuebel> Well, sentencing is already understood to be firing for a third offense.
01:46 <@jhuebel> Correct?
01:46 <@plasmaroo> Three valid or recurring complaints => fire
01:46 <@SeJo> jhuebel: we are again bending ourselves to ciaran, that i think is wrong by itself
01:46 <@jhuebel> plasmaroo: yes
01:46 <@plasmaroo> Very serious offence => fire/suspend
01:47 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: No. He still has the right to appeal like anyone else.
01:47 <@plasmaroo> Or shall we just dump the suspend option?
01:47 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: serious = fire
01:47 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: I didn't ever say he didn't.
01:47 <@jhuebel> plasmaroo: serious == fire
01:47 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: dump the suspend he's already had a 2 monthsuspention.
01:47 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: However, appeals happen afterwards.
01:47 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: if i go deliberatly removing the tree, i should be fired immediately
01:47 <+`Kumba> http://kumba.drachentekh.net/x/tcptraceroute/files/c.txt  <-- How is this for a starting list of requests to be made of ciaranm in return for reinstatement?
01:47 <@urilith> ciaran's next logical step would be firing, as it would be with any other random dev B
01:47 <@plasmaroo> Ok, so we have consensus.
01:47 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Having a look.
01:47 :::: KingTaco!~kingtaco@... has quit: Success
01:48 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Looks great. Just throw something in that all complaints will be investigated.
01:48 <@urilith> ribosome: to clarify some more, appeals are outside the scope of devrel, that was a purposeful decision
01:48 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: And that by returning he agrees to be tactful and to not flip his lid as per etiquette otherwise sanctions.
01:49 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Exactly.
01:49 <@plasmaroo> One more thing.
01:49 <+`Kumba> Plasmaroo, that's what point #4 is for
01:49 <@SeJo> an apology
01:49 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I see 4 and 5 as the points which got us here in the first place.
01:49 <@plasmaroo> If infra sees a serious offence, what happens?
01:49 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I'd say it's not clear enough.
01:49 <@SeJo> i think at least he should apologize to the persons he insulted
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01:49 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: He'd say there's no mention of etiquette yada yada
01:50 :::: KingTaco!~kingtaco@... has quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
01:50 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Maybe something like "The previous two points correspond to etiquette policy which you agree to abide to" or something
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01:51 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: I would say the "etiquette" be that of what he would use when conversing with a person in the street.  I get the feeling he's one of the types who treats people on IRC way differently than those on the street
01:51 <@fmccor> I wouldn't hold him to a higher standard than what others in fact adhere to.
01:51 <@SeJo> honestly me thinks there should be a vote by all devs to see wether he should or not return, but guess that's not up to me to think right?
01:51 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: No argument there -- IMO that's fully the case for him.
01:52 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Depends, if that's what others here want then I don't see why not.
01:52 <@KingTaco> sorry, network troubles
01:52 <@plasmaroo> Him coming back really does affect Gentoo as a whole, why not let the dev community decide.
01:52 <@SeJo> indeed
01:52 <@dmwaters> we already discussed what would happen.
01:52 <@SeJo> that way he can't blame devrel nor anyone in particular
01:53 <+`Kumba> But can such a vote be done without bias or personal opinion affecting the outcome?
01:53 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, In effect, when he was suspended, tne note implied that to come back, all he needed to do was ask.
01:53 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: Because that's public lyching.
01:53 <@SeJo> dmwaters: yeah but again we are bending ourselves as we also said we wouldn't do that
01:53 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: True.
01:53 <@dmwaters> SeJo: and we also told him he could come back if we back out on that none of the devs will trust us.
01:53 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Policy says returns are at our discretion.
01:54 <@fmccor> He's not a return; he's a developer who is suspended for 60 days.
01:54 <@plasmaroo> Same thing applies AFAICR.
01:54 <@fmccor> That's what he was told, and that note went to all of -core.
01:55 <+`Kumba> Another point I'll add as well, maybe one that's gone by unnoticed, but that one reason this entire debate is being held is because I would dare say that "we need him as much as he needs us".  we didn't hold such a debate like this (to my knowledge) about brad_mssw, and I imagine if ciaranm didn't feel any kind of care for Gentoo, he wouldn't be investing the time to rewrite portage in C++
01:55 <@fmccor> I think trying to reinterpret it at this point is asking for a lot of trouble.
01:55 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: We're obviously not going to say 'No' right now since everybody deserves a second chance.
01:55 <@SeJo> dmwaters: honestly i don't trust devrel myself if we let him come back based on 5 points that he will bend anyway
01:55 <@plasmaroo> Then we get complaints that we deal with.
01:56 <@plasmaroo> They're not rules, but suggestions.
01:56 <@fmccor> `Kumba, right.  He clearly has a lot invested in Gentoo and cares for it quite a bit --- that's part of the problem, in fact.
01:56 <@plasmaroo> More like 'advice to not get your ass busted'
01:56 <+`Kumba> fmccor: I don't see that as a problem, but as a solution, if utilized in the right way
01:56 <@plasmaroo> If he ends up misbehaving, his fault, we deal with it.
01:56 <+`Kumba> we have to balance his needs and wants with our own
01:57 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I meant that that is why he can be intollerant of mistakes, sometimes.
01:57 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I don't disagree with you at all on this.
01:57 <@dmwaters> actually seemant and avenj and i had quite the debate about brad but anyway
01:57 **** plasmaroo also.
01:57 <+`Kumba> the points of etiquette (I hate spelling that word) we apply to him have to, ultimately, be applied to everyone.
01:57 <@dmwaters> ok
01:57 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: SeJo
01:58 <@plasmaroo> Yes?
01:58 <@fmccor> `Kumba, yes.
01:58 <@dmwaters> he will return, that's all there is to it
01:58 <@dmwaters> if he fucks up, he gets fired. sorry for the bluntness.
01:58 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yeah, the meeting isn't to change that but rather things after the return.
01:58 **** KingTaco high fives dmwaters
01:58 <@plasmaroo> Fine with me, heh.
01:58 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: the meeting is to deal with ciaranm.
01:59 <@dmwaters> ok
01:59 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Right.
01:59 <@dmwaters> now that that's done
01:59 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: fmccor correct me if i'm wrong......
01:59 <@dmwaters> 1. he returns.
01:59 <@dmwaters> 2. every complaint we get from him is investigated.
01:59 <@dmwaters> 3. if it's a bad he, he will most likely end up fired.
02:00 <@dmwaters> 4. 3 in a row of the repeated garbage we have in his bug, he gets fired if they're solid, correct?
02:00 < jeeves> dmwaters: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4 nor, P2, x86, tneidt@...>micke@..., RESOLVED, FIXED, graphviz-1.7.15.ebuild
02:00 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yep.
02:00 <+`Kumba> sounds good to me
02:00 <@dmwaters> jeeves: wtf?
02:00 <@jhuebel> Sounds fair for everyone.
02:00 <@kloeri_> sounds good
02:01 **** KingTaco sticks his thumb up
02:01 <@plasmaroo> Six so far.
02:01 <@urilith> dmwaters: you had the words "bug" and "four" in your last statement, jeeves is stupid
02:01 <@urilith> and that works for me as well
02:01 <@fmccor> I'm fine with the first three; I'd recommend a little more discretion on the 4th; otherwise, it's good for me.
02:01 <@plasmaroo> Seven.
02:01 <+`Kumba> One thing though, when me or Weeve (likely me) approach him and explain to him what's been adopted, does anyone have a problem if he sees a copy of this log as well, so that he sees we're trying to be open and meet him halfway?
02:01 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: How about we add "and no improvement in behaviour is seen"
02:02 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, That works.
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02:02 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, I'm suprised he's not in here now
02:02 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Why not, we're open for business now anyway :P
02:02 <@urilith> i see no reason to hide this from him
02:02 <@urilith> it does involve him
02:02 <@kloeri_> nod
02:02 <@fmccor> I think he should see it.  After all, he could have been here in person.
02:02 <@ribosome> Same as fmcoor. And we need to put down in writting who decides the sentences.
02:02 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: See above amendment.
02:02 <+`Kumba> indeed, but it's just to head off any possible "tim-foil" hat wearing
02:02 <@plasmaroo> *g*
02:02 <@SeJo> i hope this thing doesn't blow up in our faces
02:03 <@KingTaco> ribosome, see the devrel guide we adopted a bit back
02:03 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: which?
02:03 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I said: How about we add "and no improvement in behaviour is seen"
02:03 <@dmwaters> SeJo: we're devrel, we're a target:p
02:03 <+`Kumba> SeJo: I doubt it will.  The only people we have to worry about blowing this up are the extreme ciaranm-hating-users out there that will not like this
02:03 <@dmwaters> to which?
02:03 <@SeJo> dmwaters: yeah but didn't know we had to be sadomasochistic
02:03 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: #4
02:04 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Heh...
02:04 <@SeJo> `Kumba: wait till the shit hits the fan...i'll be wearing my helmet...
02:04 <@plasmaroo> Ok, eight votes in approval of above + amendment.
02:04 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, My concern is the one `Kumba just raised.
02:04 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: do you have any objection to plasmaroo's adition to 4.
02:04 **** dmwaters does like it.
02:04 <@dmwaters> fmccor:
02:04 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: lemme scroll up real quick and find #4 + amendment
02:04 <@SeJo> fmccor: the ciaran haters?
02:04 <@fmccor> Yes.
02:04 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Complaints get dealt with faily... if it's just one off lines, we stash and ignore
02:05 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: "I hate Ciaran" goes to /dev/null also
02:05 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, Understood.
02:05 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: agreed
02:05 <@dmwaters> ok then
02:05 <@SeJo> fmccor: like all things when people make false claims, ciaran will know and can complain to us about theù
02:05 <@plasmaroo> That too.
02:05 <@SeJo> they will be treated the same
02:05 <@dmwaters> can someone with nice pretty writing skills write it up?
02:05 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Thoughts on this? Agreed?
02:05 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Write what up?
02:06 <@fmccor> I don't doubt it.  I just want it to be explicit.
02:06 <+`Kumba> also, we're going to adhere to the storing of "open" complaints to his sort os..."parole bug", and private complaints (to be indicated beforehand by the user) to the old bug?
02:06 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: the terms, guidelines, whateveryou want to call it
02:06 <+`Kumba> s/os/of/
02:06 <@fmccor> I think the log speaks for itself, pretty much.
02:06 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I'd agree.
02:06 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: I would.
02:06 <@dmwaters> fmccor: it does, but a summary would be nice
02:06 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, the old bug is available to all gentoo devs
02:07 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I can make a summary but the condition will be that it is in no way authoritative
02:07 <@dmwaters> fmccor: since when i walked in it was highly disorganized/confusing.
02:07 <+`Kumba> KingTaco: which he will be once more, and thus able to read too
02:07 <@plasmaroo> The authorative decision was taken here thus, and we've got eight votes in favour.
02:07 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, (damn that '`') then the new bug is private?
02:07 <@plasmaroo> KingTaco: No, new is public.
02:07 <+`Kumba> KingTaco: no, open to all
02:07 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: yes, agreed, but still not convinced on if it will help/work
02:07 <@KingTaco> ok
02:08 <@dmwaters> SeJo: sometimes you have to go with it and hope that it does work out
02:08 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: We can't be 100%with anything... :P
02:08 <@plasmaroo> Ok, summary:
02:08 <@plasmaroo> Disclaimer; The following is a summary, see log for details. It is not authoritative.
02:08 <@plasmaroo> 1. Ciaran will return.
02:08 <+`Kumba> and perhaps, for future bugs of this nature, it might be an idea to tag them with an expiration date, at which point, those bugs become public (like say a year)
02:08 **** SeJo is looking for a latex leach and his latex pants, time for some sm
02:09 <@plasmaroo> 2. Every complaint will be investigated. Complaints will be made public, as will the results.
02:09 <@KingTaco> hahahahahah, I read that as LaTeX
02:09 <@plasmaroo> 2.1. The only exception to this is private complaints which will only be visible to developers.
02:09 <@plasmaroo> 3. If a serious offence is carried out, which is to be decided on the discretion of the whole DevRel team at a meeting, Ciaran will be fired.
02:10 <@dmwaters> majority
02:10 <+`Kumba> 2.2: such a private complaint needs to be stated beforehand, otherwise it defaults to public
02:10 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Ack.
02:10 <@dmwaters> agreed `Kumba
02:11 <@plasmaroo> 4. If three (3) valid offences with solid evidence (this is defined by the judges explicitly at the hearing if the complaint is worth this) or no change in behaviour is seen from continuous complaints, Ciaran will be fired.
02:11 <@plasmaroo> Er, lemme rephrase.
02:11 <@plasmaroo> 4. If three (3) valid offences with solid evidence (defined such that by the judges explicitly at the hearing of the complaint) or no change in behaviour is seen from continuous complaints, Ciaran will be fired.
02:12 <@plasmaroo> 5. A list of guidelines [link] has been issued.
02:12 <+`Kumba> "evidence" should be defined as unedited logs (unedited meaning everything is intact.  No scrubbing to removes sensitive material, including passwords)
02:12 <@plasmaroo> Ok, 4.1
02:13 <@plasmaroo> Last call for additions.
02:13 <@urilith> plasmaroo: um, private complaints should be public, just not the person who made them
02:13 <@SeJo> points ae non negotiable
02:13 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: ^^
02:13 <@SeJo> s/ae/are/
02:13 <@SeJo> take it or leave it agreement!
02:13 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, "continuous valid complaints" in 4., the looks fine to me.
02:13 <@plasmaroo> 4.2 Points are non-negotiable unless declared otherwise by the management commitee.
02:14 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Rephrase please.
02:14 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, 4. .... from continuous valid complaints, Ciaran ...
02:15 <@fmccor> Again, just to be explicit.
02:15 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: What about it? Need more detail?
02:15 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: combine all that with the list I posted as well?
02:15 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I will do.
02:15 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, No, I was just suggesting inserting a word.
02:15 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I think we'll be sending this to -core.
02:15 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Sorry, missed it ;)
02:15 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Agreed.
02:15 <+`Kumba> he'll need in writing a reminder to give others a second chance.
02:16 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yeah, the list will go to him.
02:16 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: (As well)
02:16 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: state ver very clear that if no complaints about the list, the list is non negotiable by anyone!
02:16 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Which list.
02:16 <@SeJo> i rather say even not negotiable by management
02:16 <@SeJo> your points you just summed up
02:16 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: I'm afraid we can't do that.
02:16 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: he should ve given a chance to respond to us about points on the list, incase he has any of his own suggestions, before going to -core
02:17 <+`Kumba> that way, we can say with certainty that he had a minor voice
02:17 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: It has to be overruleable by management.
02:17 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: 10 goto 20, 20 goto 10;
02:17 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: else { bitch("Not fair\n"); dump_core(); }
02:17 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: quite honestly, i don't think he should have say in this. he's the one who got himself into it
02:17 <@urilith> SeJo: we don't have the authority to say this can't be overridden by the managers
02:17 <@urilith> if we try to say we do, we get back into the "cabal" argument
02:17 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: I would agree to a point, but it is a sign of our openess towards him
02:17 <@SeJo> urilith: once they agree, they can't back up
02:18 <@SeJo> so send the mail to management let them agree and then send out
02:18 <+`Kumba> if we express such openness but receive none in return, then we can expect an infinite loop scenario
02:18 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Hrm?
02:18 <@dmwaters> fmccor: does someone on trial/purrol have say in their terms?
02:19 <@plasmaroo> The situation is that his reply will probably be that none of this needs to happen since he never agreed to the suspension, remember. So it would be moot.
02:19 <@fmccor> They can always make a statement.
02:19 <@plasmaroo> They can make a statement.
02:19 <@plasmaroo> But they can only have a say (well, ask) on their terms if they agree to the suspension. He doesn't.
02:19 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: fine let him make a statement, but he can't change them
02:19 <@plasmaroo> So there's no point.
02:19 <@plasmaroo> Ok; so.
02:19 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: I'm not necessarily saying he be allowed to alter what we've agreed to, I'm saying he be allowed to give us (us being defined as me, weeve, and devrel) his thoughts, and we can take those into considerations for any possible amendments before -core posting
02:20 <@plasmaroo> 6. These terms are final and are subject to discretion by the majority of the DevRel team unless overruled by the management team.
02:20 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I agree, I think, if only as a matter of courtesy.
02:20 <+`Kumba> fmccor: and diplomacy
02:20 **** fmccor wonders how that is really spelled.
02:20 <+`Kumba> fmccor: I think you got it right
02:20 <@plasmaroo> There's a bit of a catch-22.
02:21 <@fmccor> `Kumba, Yes.  Sort of setting an example.
02:21 <@plasmaroo> He might say we weren't open enough.
02:21 <@plasmaroo> He might rant how we're a cabal since he doesn't get the chance to change.
02:21 <@dmwaters> anyway
02:21 <@plasmaroo> So I seriously see no point.
02:21 <@dmwaters> are we done with this
02:21 <@urilith> imho, i honestly think that anything we do is a catch-22
02:21 <@plasmaroo> He should of course be allowed to make a statement.
02:21 <@plasmaroo> (In reply to this)
02:21 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Not yet.
02:21 <@urilith> we just have to make the best decision we can and go with it
02:21 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: we've already agreed on that
02:21 <@plasmaroo> Ok.
02:21 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: it's possible.  But if he says that, after we show him the log of this meeting, as well as the list, then I don't think such an argument will hold much water
02:22 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: One can try, believe me.
02:22 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, That's one reason to give him a preview.
02:22 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, And he might have something constructive to say.
02:22 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: *shrug*
02:22 <@plasmaroo> Ok.
02:22 <+`Kumba> plus, it might be a good idea to somehow give me an archive of the -core discussions that resulted following his suspension as read-only material.  It might alter his perceptions
02:22 <@plasmaroo> Last call for anything to add to this.
02:22 <@urilith> if he makes a statement suggestion change, we should make public any discussion we have to accept/reject said changes
02:22 <@urilith> that will kill his cabal argument
02:22 <+`Kumba> (as well as give him enough reading material for a month or two)
02:22 <@plasmaroo> Once that's done I am a) constructing this list
02:23 <@plasmaroo> That list will be sent to Ciaran
02:23 <@plasmaroo> He has um, let's say, two days to suggest things.
02:23 <+`Kumba> hmm, I like three
02:23 <@plasmaroo> After which we may or may not call another meeting
02:23 <@plasmaroo> Three it is.
02:23 <+`Kumba> it's a nice, proportionate, number
02:23 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: let jason or i send it please.
02:23 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes yes, I'm just drafting.
02:23 <+`Kumba> Or I can send it
02:23 <@dmwaters> let kumba send it:p
02:23 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I'd rather it be you.
02:23 <@fmccor> Send him the log, since he could have been here anyway.
02:23 <+`Kumba> or is Jason refering not to Weeve?
02:24 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: That's jhuebel
02:24 **** dmwaters gladly dumps it in kumba's lap
02:24 <@plasmaroo> Ok.
02:24 <@plasmaroo> Last call for comments.
02:24 <@KingTaco> I want a beer
02:24 <@plasmaroo> And on that we shall end.
02:24 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: -m by plasmaroo
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Updated Jun 17, 2009

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