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To: gentoo-devrel@g.o
From: Jason Huebel <jhuebel@g.o>
Subject: 20040824 devrel meeting log
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:57:12 -0500
Enjoy! :-)

Jason Huebel
Gentoo/amd64 Strategic Lead
Gentoo Developer Relations/Recruiter

GPG Public Key:

"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand."
Baruch Spinoza (1632 - 1677)
Aug 24 13:01:35 <plasmaroo>	Meeting time.
Aug 24 13:01:41 ---	plasmaroo has changed the topic to: Meeting...
Aug 24 13:01:43 -->	tgall_foo (~tgall@...) has joined #gentoo-devrel
Aug 24 13:01:47 ---	dmwaters sets mode +m #gentoo-devrel
Aug 24 13:02:15 *	plasmaroo hands the floor to dmwaters.
Aug 24 13:02:16 <dmwaters>	7 out of 10, not bad
Aug 24 13:02:19 <dmwaters>	ok
Aug 24 13:02:31 <dmwaters>	recruiting process
Aug 24 13:02:43 <dmwaters>	I want to extend the eval period to a month like it used to be
Aug 24 13:03:17 <eradicator>	that puts a lot more strain on the mentor to handle commits
Aug 24 13:03:37 <jhuebel>	Sounds fair to me.
Aug 24 13:03:41 <dmwaters>	it also forces the mentor to be more responsible for the  dev
Aug 24 13:03:42 <eradicator>	especially for very enthusiastic applicants
Aug 24 13:03:58 <plasmaroo>	eradicator: I think we can allow for exceptions.
Aug 24 13:03:58 <dmwaters>	it also takes a lot of strain off us.
Aug 24 13:03:58 <jhuebel>	It also gives us more time to make sure things are in order.
Aug 24 13:04:25 -->	spyderous (~donnie@...) has joined #gentoo-devrel
Aug 24 13:04:25 ---	ChanServ gives channel operator status to spyderous
Aug 24 13:04:31 <dmwaters>	we can have exceptions,  I just don't want to push people through as fast as we have been
Aug 24 13:04:41 <dmwaters>	donnie, hi
Aug 24 13:04:43 <avenj>	if the folks listening in have something to add, drop me (or anybody, really) a message for voice, please
Aug 24 13:04:50 <spyderous>	hey, sorry -- new X is being broken.
Aug 24 13:05:03 <cshields>	hey Donnie
Aug 24 13:05:06 <g2boojum>	I'm not quite sure exactly what's supposed to happen during the eval period.
Aug 24 13:05:06 <avenj>	i'm okay with a longer eval also
Aug 24 13:05:10 <dmwaters>	[~tgall_foo!~tgall@... ] also allows you a "month" of time
Aug 24 13:05:13 <dmwaters>	          to build a resume for what the new dev has done during the mentoring
Aug 24 13:05:16 <dmwaters>	          period
Aug 24 13:05:18 <dmwaters>	he has a point
Aug 24 13:05:24 <dmwaters>	a very vallid one
Aug 24 13:05:43 <spyderous>	yeah, i was thinking we might want to require some more proof of accomplishment, too. good thought tgall_foo.
Aug 24 13:05:49 <eradicator>	but shouldn't that resume be present before we even start mentoring?
Aug 24 13:05:57 <dmwaters>	eradicator: doesn't have to be
Aug 24 13:06:13 <jhuebel>	But haven't we typically wanted some evidence of work in bugs.g.o?
Aug 24 13:06:16 <dmwaters>	eradicator: before the bug is filed though, I'd expect to see some work on that new person's part
Aug 24 13:06:23 <cshields>	eradicator: that's up to the mentor..  if I were going to mentor someone, I would like to know their background, so sometimes yes
Aug 24 13:06:29 <dmwaters>	like ebuilds in portage or bugzilla
Aug 24 13:06:32 <plasmaroo>	jhuebel: We don't have to; not all developers wrangle for a start.
Aug 24 13:06:40 <jhuebel>	plasmaroo: Trueday.
Aug 24 13:06:45 <jhuebel>	er.. truedat
Aug 24 13:06:57 <plasmaroo>	Infra and Documentation use Bugzilla a lot less, for example.
Aug 24 13:06:59 <avenj>	i think it's fair to start mentoring based on fewer (definitely not zero) prior accomplishments as long as they're going to have a longer mentoring period with more practical work done during that period anyway
Aug 24 13:07:22 *	jhuebel nods to avenj.
Aug 24 13:07:25 <g2boojum>	I'll agree w/ avenj.
Aug 24 13:07:26 *	plasmaroo nods.
Aug 24 13:07:34 <spyderous>	do you think those accomplishments need to be within gentoo?
Aug 24 13:07:44 <cshields>	I agree with avenj..
Aug 24 13:07:48 <plasmaroo>	I think some Gentoo some OSS would be good.
Aug 24 13:07:53 <dmwaters>	spyderous: no, take gregkh for example who's a kernel person.
Aug 24 13:08:02 <dmwaters>	but, how ever
Aug 24 13:08:03 <avenj>	spyderous: to some extent, but i think open source contributions et al should be taken into consideration by mentors and recruiters
Aug 24 13:08:25 <dmwaters>	I would expect that person to know how gentoo works before they are put up for new dev.
Aug 24 13:08:28 -->	seemant (~trinity@...) has joined #gentoo-devrel
Aug 24 13:08:28 ---	ChanServ gives channel operator status to seemant
Aug 24 13:08:28 <cshields>	but..  just because someone may be a big OSS dev doesn't mean they know beans about portage, for instance
Aug 24 13:08:33 <avenj>	yep
Aug 24 13:08:35 <avenj>	morning seemant
Aug 24 13:08:42 <seemant>	morning job
Aug 24 13:08:44 <seemant>	damn
Aug 24 13:08:46 <dmwaters>	hi seemant 
Aug 24 13:08:46 <seemant>	morning jon
Aug 24 13:08:46 <plasmaroo>	cshields: Exactly, so a balance of both is best.
Aug 24 13:08:50 <seemant>	hi deedra
Aug 24 13:08:52 *	plasmaroo hands out coffee.
Aug 24 13:08:57 <seemant>	thanks
Aug 24 13:09:09 <dmwaters>	guys, my main thing is I don't expect them to be a portage god but I expect them to know what they're doing
Aug 24 13:09:21 <dmwaters>	make sense?
Aug 24 13:09:25 <jhuebel>	yup
Aug 24 13:09:33 <plasmaroo>	Wasn't that always a requirement anyway?
Aug 24 13:09:36 <spyderous>	no, you're mumbling. speak up, deedra.
Aug 24 13:09:43 *	dmwaters nudges donnie
Aug 24 13:09:54 <cshields>	:)
Aug 24 13:10:01 <eradicator>	for most devs, I think figuring out portage is fairly trivial... I'd agree that the OSS contribution is more important
Aug 24 13:10:02 <plasmaroo>	I assume if we recruit somebody to do X, they'd know everything they need to know about X including how to get X intergrated into Portage.
Aug 24 13:10:11 <seemant>	should we include ciaran's bash quiz into the main quiz, people?
Aug 24 13:10:19 <dmwaters>	seemant: that's next on my list
Aug 24 13:10:23 <g2boojum>	Makes sense to me.  While we're discussing recruiting, could we get the bash quiz as part of the quiz for ebuild-type folks?
Aug 24 13:10:25 <plasmaroo>	Only for those who need gentoo-x86 write; I think.
Aug 24 13:10:26 <spyderous>	plasmaroo: if that were the case, i wouldn't be here.
Aug 24 13:10:26 <cshields>	seemant: url?
Aug 24 13:10:32 <g2boojum>	Darn, seemant beat me to it.
Aug 24 13:10:37 <dmwaters>	wait guys :)
Aug 24 13:10:41 <dmwaters>	please :)
Aug 24 13:10:44 <plasmaroo>	spyderous: X as in $something :-p
Aug 24 13:10:57 <plasmaroo>	spyderous: Sorry.
Aug 24 13:11:05 <dmwaters>	longer mentoring period,  I say yes. who else
Aug 24 13:11:19 <jhuebel>	plasmaroo: I would assume we would want that person to develop ebuilds as part of their mentoring for "X".
Aug 24 13:11:22 <avenj>	me
Aug 24 13:11:22 <spyderous>	plasmaroo: i think that as long as they've got a basic knowledge and a willingness to learn, we're doing well.
Aug 24 13:11:34 *	plasmaroo doesn't mind either; I think we need just need stricter QA.
Aug 24 13:11:41 <plasmaroo>	jhuebel: Indeed; hence the point.
Aug 24 13:11:51 <dmwaters>	avenj and i
Aug 24 13:11:52 *	jhuebel nods.
Aug 24 13:11:58 <eradicator>	dmwaters: yes as long as the recruiters are allowed leeway to drop it down to 2 weeks for exceptions
Aug 24 13:12:00 <g2boojum>	yay, since it's not an absolute requirement
Aug 24 13:12:01 <spyderous>	i'd really like to see every new ebuild dev come out of their training period with one solid ebuild.
Aug 24 13:12:03 <jhuebel>	dmwaters: longer mentoring period: yes
Aug 24 13:12:08 <seemant>	how much longer?
Aug 24 13:12:14 <plasmaroo>	2 weeks >> 1 month.
Aug 24 13:12:27 <seemant>	I'll vote maybe
Aug 24 13:12:35 <cshields>	dmwaters: yes here
Aug 24 13:12:44 <spyderous>	it can't hurt to try. if it doesn't work, we can revert.
Aug 24 13:12:49 <seemant>	there's some people, you know, where you feel they're ready before
Aug 24 13:12:49 *	plasmaroo too. I think we need to allow exceptions in certain places.
Aug 24 13:12:50 <dmwaters>	seemant: 1 month, and exceptions for special cases
Aug 24 13:13:09 <cshields>	who determines the exceptions?  recruiters?
Aug 24 13:13:10 <seemant>	ok
Aug 24 13:13:10 <dmwaters>	our special cases, I'm not worried about :)
Aug 24 13:13:22 <plasmaroo>	Mentor asking recruiters.
Aug 24 13:13:26 <dmwaters>	ok, now for the quiz
Aug 24 13:13:33 <dmwaters>	what I wanted was this:
Aug 24 13:13:41 <dmwaters>	and this is what someone else suggested
Aug 24 13:14:04 <dmwaters>	we take the current quiz and they're to take that at the beginning, at the end, we give them a more detailed quiz
Aug 24 13:14:15 <plasmaroo>	Ok.
Aug 24 13:14:24 <dmwaters>	what I had wanted was ciaranm's quiz to be used in the second quiz
Aug 24 13:14:35 <cshields>	url for ciaranm's quiz?
Aug 24 13:14:39 <plasmaroo>
Aug 24 13:14:46 <avenj>
Aug 24 13:14:47 <avenj>	or that
Aug 24 13:15:35 <avenj>	dmwaters: i'm quite okay with that
Aug 24 13:15:42 <jhuebel>	Looks great.
Aug 24 13:15:44 <dmwaters>	we need material for the second quiz
Aug 24 13:15:49 <dmwaters>	if we choose that route
Aug 24 13:16:00 <plasmaroo>	We should have material for the second one now. At least in my drafts.
Aug 24 13:16:14 <dmwaters>	you want to write it and give it to avenj?
Aug 24 13:16:23 <plasmaroo>	?
Aug 24 13:16:43 <dmwaters>	plasmaroo: we have ciaranm's quiz, but I think it should contain more material besides that
Aug 24 13:16:51 <plasmaroo>	dmwaters: Ah.
Aug 24 13:16:59 <plasmaroo>	dmwaters: QA would be the best to ask.
Aug 24 13:17:19 *	dmwaters nods.
Aug 24 13:17:24 <spyderous>	i think the second quiz should be more about knowing where to look when you don't know something, than knowing all the facts.
Aug 24 13:17:35 <dmwaters>	hmm?
Aug 24 13:17:38 <spyderous>	what resources to check, who to ask and where
Aug 24 13:18:10 <plasmaroo>	I think that would be better suited for the first quiz so developers know about it from the start.
Aug 24 13:18:57 <avenj>	i agree with plasmaroo, i think the second quiz should be more focused on slightly complex gentoo development issues
Aug 24 13:19:06 *	dmwaters nods 
Aug 24 13:19:13 <spyderous>	you plan to cover all of them?
Aug 24 13:19:19 <spyderous>	that'll be a nice long quiz.
Aug 24 13:19:23 <plasmaroo>	For which developers can use the searching techniques they learned through the first quiz.
Aug 24 13:19:25 <jhuebel>	Some of these questions may need a little rewording to be clear.
Aug 24 13:19:27 <avenj>	no, i plan to cover enough of them to give people an excellent basis for a lot of relatively common situations
Aug 24 13:20:04 <avenj>	it's impossible to document/quiz _everything_ involved with a subject, but that shouldn't prevent us from doing what we can (c.f. ciaranm's material)
Aug 24 13:20:12 *	plasmaroo nods.
Aug 24 13:20:15 <spyderous>	i don't really care whether what i said is in the first or second quiz. i just think it's important for people to know where to learn what they don't know.
Aug 24 13:20:22 <avenj>	i agree
Aug 24 13:20:26 *	plasmaroo nods again.
Aug 24 13:20:32 *	dmwaters nods at spyderous 
Aug 24 13:20:47 <dmwaters>	so what do you guys want, do you want just the 1 quiz, or 2
Aug 24 13:20:54 *	dmwaters wants the 2
Aug 24 13:20:58 <cshields>	why seperate the 2 quizzes?
Aug 24 13:21:13 *	plasmaroo would also have two although developers should be given the option of doing both if they wish.
Aug 24 13:21:15 <spyderous>	to create an entrance barrier with the first one, but not make it too high
Aug 24 13:21:21 <jhuebel>	Why don't we drop da bomb on them in the beginning, but require to second quiz to be completed by the end of the mentoring period?
Aug 24 13:21:40 <jhuebel>	s/require to/require the/
Aug 24 13:22:15 <dmwaters>	cshields: if they don't pass the first quiz then it gives us both  knowing what we're dealing with, and 2, they must pass the first quiz to get any further
Aug 24 13:22:43 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: I'd rather split it up a bit, anotherwords, if you don't pass the first, why take the second
Aug 24 13:22:43 <cshields>	ok, I can see that
Aug 24 13:23:07 <jhuebel>	dmwaters: K, I guess it could go either way.
Aug 24 13:23:10 <dmwaters>	they need to pass both quizzes anyway, but we can wead out some of them with the first
Aug 24 13:23:16 <spyderous>	maybe consider it more like an evaluation than a quiz. it ought to help the mentor.
Aug 24 13:23:26 *	jhuebel nods.
Aug 24 13:23:35 <dmwaters>	spyderous: nod.
Aug 24 13:24:04 <g2boojum>	I'm content w/ 2, but I'd like to throw that out on -core for comments since it will affect nearly everybody.
Aug 24 13:24:15 *	plasmaroo nods.
Aug 24 13:24:31 <dmwaters>	g2boojum: people want a much more dificult quiz, this will give them what they want, plus help us
Aug 24 13:24:36 <cshields>	while we are on the topic, I'll be honest in that I don't like the "quiz" idea.   but I don't have a better answer for the task that needs to be done (assuring that a new dev knows their stuff), so I will continue to support it.
Aug 24 13:24:36 <dmwaters>	but, nod
Aug 24 13:25:14 <dmwaters>	we're going to need help from qa to get material for the second, anyway
Aug 24 13:25:25 <dmwaters>	I'll send out a mail to core
Aug 24 13:25:28 <dmwaters>	after this
Aug 24 13:25:30 <spyderous>	cshields: the other way would probably be a shared screen session, watching the trainee do a bunch of practical things. that's a big time consumer though.
Aug 24 13:25:41 <cshields>	yeah
Aug 24 13:25:44 <plasmaroo>	That would be messy.
Aug 24 13:25:45 <cshields>	the quiz works
Aug 24 13:25:51 <dmwaters>	spyderous: and we'd need a dedicated box  for that
Aug 24 13:26:05 <spyderous>	dmwaters: something like
Aug 24 13:26:19 <dmwaters>	well, yes, but not that box.
Aug 24 13:26:34 <dmwaters>	I don't think we want strangers running in and out of
Aug 24 13:26:49 *	plasmaroo thinks screen et al. will put on pressure and what-not on the new recruits.
Aug 24 13:26:56 <spyderous>	it could be fun. we could play tag.
Aug 24 13:26:58 <dmwaters>	especially if they end up not making it
Aug 24 13:26:59 <cshields>	yeah, shared screen requires screen suid root..  we can't do that.  anyway, the quiz works
Aug 24 13:27:10 <dmwaters>	lol
Aug 24 13:27:24 <dmwaters>	ok
Aug 24 13:27:31 <dmwaters>	I'll send out a mail to core about the quizzes
Aug 24 13:27:44 <dmwaters>	next, let's talk about mentors
Aug 24 13:27:48 ---	dmwaters gives voice to tgall_foo
Aug 24 13:27:56 <dmwaters>	tgall_foo: what did you want to say about mentors?
Aug 24 13:28:31 <eradicator>	i'm not too keen on the shared screen stuff... that actually seems like a huge waste of time... it's better, imo, to have them send you the final results for comment
Aug 24 13:28:53 <cshields>	I agree
Aug 24 13:29:01 <cshields>	didn't mean to jump tracks, sorry
Aug 24 13:29:02 *	plasmaroo too.
Aug 24 13:29:08 <spyderous>	yeah, that would be the option we charge for by the hour.
Aug 24 13:29:10 <tgall_foo>	another area I suspect we need some improvement is in the area of the mentors, I think it's important that they evaluate the candidate both on the technical (knows language x, y z) and communication skills (do they help people .. approach others for feedback etc)
Aug 24 13:29:23 <tgall_foo>	so this woudl be informatoin that goes back to the recruiters
Aug 24 13:29:36 <spyderous>	yeah, communication is huge.
Aug 24 13:30:03 <jhuebel>	Who are currently considered elligible to be a mentor?
Aug 24 13:30:03 <plasmaroo>	We ask them to tell us about their technical side in the quiz already...?
Aug 24 13:30:22 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: currently anyone can file a bug  for new dev
Aug 24 13:30:34 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: anyone who's a dev, that is.
Aug 24 13:30:35 <jhuebel>	I think that should be limited to leads.
Aug 24 13:30:52 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: I've been trying to enforce that, but for some things, it's hard
Aug 24 13:30:58 <spyderous>	leads have a limited amount of time, too.
Aug 24 13:31:03 <jhuebel>	Well, tehre are always exceptions.
Aug 24 13:31:11 <spyderous>	makes more sense to limit it to "experienced devs" -- say, 6 months minimum.
Aug 24 13:31:13 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: for projects I try to require the approval of the lead, but for herds it's not that simple
Aug 24 13:31:24 <jhuebel>	True.
Aug 24 13:31:26 <spyderous>	perhaps require a lead to OK it
Aug 24 13:31:31 <tgall_foo>	well how about for project and herd leads
Aug 24 13:31:33 <dmwaters>	spyderous: agreed...
Aug 24 13:31:43 <jhuebel>	Having a lead ok it is a better idea.
Aug 24 13:31:44 <dmwaters>	spyderous: that's what I'm doing now
Aug 24 13:31:56 <jhuebel>	I think that should be required before we even touch a new dev bug.
Aug 24 13:31:58 <cshields>	I would add another clause that the dev has been in good standing (ie: no complaints against the dev, etc)
Aug 24 13:31:59 <dmwaters>	tgall_foo: I don't think there are herd leads..
Aug 24 13:32:15 <spyderous>	then get the herd to come to a consensus, and have one of them say so.
Aug 24 13:32:33 <spyderous>	they've gotta make decisions somehow.
Aug 24 13:32:38 <dmwaters>	cshields: hmm, that would exclude project leads as well
Aug 24 13:32:40 <tgall_foo>	does make you ponder if it might not be a good idea for herds to have a lead
Aug 24 13:32:47 <dmwaters>	tgall_foo: nod.
Aug 24 13:33:04 <jhuebel>	Yeah, is anyone in charge of herds?
Aug 24 13:33:10 <plasmaroo>	pauldv.
Aug 24 13:33:12 <jhuebel>	Or is that the wild west of Gentoo?
Aug 24 13:33:16 <cshields>	dmwaters: eh, there's no good way to say this, I just don't want to see jerks spawning more jerks..  
Aug 24 13:33:26 <jhuebel>	cshields: nod
Aug 24 13:33:30 <cshields>	maybe that can't be helped..
Aug 24 13:33:32 <plasmaroo>	cshields: Nod.
Aug 24 13:33:41 <dmwaters>	cshields: nod, but we also have complaints raised against project leads, so that makes it hard
Aug 24 13:33:46 <g2boojum>	cshields: But Joe shouldn't be rejected because Fred-Jerk has nominated him.
Aug 24 13:33:54 <tgall_foo>	there is always the human equation no matter where you go
Aug 24 13:33:58 <eradicator>	g2boojum: I agree...
Aug 24 13:34:03 <dmwaters>	g2boojum: nod
Aug 24 13:34:06 <cshields>	g2boojum: true
Aug 24 13:34:07 <eradicator>	we need to look at the individual dev... 
Aug 24 13:34:10 <jhuebel>	Unfortunately, in a project the size of Gentoo, one mans' jerk is another's go-to guy.
Aug 24 13:34:25 <cshields>	yeah..
Aug 24 13:34:25 <eradicator>	i think that we might need to find a new mentor in some cases, but not completely ignore the candidate
Aug 24 13:34:29 <dmwaters>	ok, so let's take this 1 thing at a time
Aug 24 13:34:56 <cshields>	I just look at the Gentoo development team and realize that my real job is some dreamland where everyone is happy and gets along..  must be the paycheck.  -shrug-
Aug 24 13:35:02 <dmwaters>	let's start with donnie's suggestion of experienced devs mentoring
Aug 24 13:35:11 <cshields>	k
Aug 24 13:35:24 <g2boojum>	For the record, I would prefer that any dev be able to suggest a new dev.  I'm happy w/ only experienced devs mentoring, however.
Aug 24 13:35:33 *	plasmaroo agrees.
Aug 24 13:35:37 <cshields>	sure
Aug 24 13:35:44 <dmwaters>	what about it having to be agreed on by an experienced dev?
Aug 24 13:35:50 *	jhuebel agrees.
Aug 24 13:36:06 <g2boojum>	dmwaters: An experienced dev has to agree to be the mentor, so it still works.
Aug 24 13:36:06 <dmwaters>	but then, how do we define "experienced"
Aug 24 13:36:13 <jhuebel>	Well, I think an experienced dev should be directly involved in the mentoring.
Aug 24 13:36:18 <cshields>	6 months
Aug 24 13:36:36 <spyderous>	there's not really a great way to do it, but time is ok.
Aug 24 13:36:55 <dmwaters>	k, well, we can vote on this at least.
Aug 24 13:37:05 <cshields>	I'm cool with it
Aug 24 13:37:12 <g2boojum>	yay
Aug 24 13:37:18 <spyderous>	yea
Aug 24 13:37:27 <plasmaroo>	Yay.
Aug 24 13:37:28 *	dmwaters as well
Aug 24 13:37:30 <jhuebel>	heh, I /just/ hit 6 months. :-) Guess I can mentor now. ;-)
Aug 24 13:37:37 *	g2boojum learns to spell "yea".
Aug 24 13:37:37 <cshields>	also, is there a limit to a mentor-to-applicant ratio?   or can someone be a mentor to a handful of devs at one time?
Aug 24 13:37:38 <dmwaters>	lol.
Aug 24 13:37:40 <dmwaters>	well
Aug 24 13:37:41 <jhuebel>	I'm cool with it.
Aug 24 13:38:05 <dmwaters>	you're a project lead. again, there probably are going to need to be some exceptions.
Aug 24 13:38:15 <avenj>	cshields: i think rather than a hard guideline, recruiters should just use some common sense
Aug 24 13:38:16 <jhuebel>	I think a mentor shouldn't have more than 2 new devs in the pipeline.
Aug 24 13:38:24 <g2boojum>	cshields: As usual, I think it depends.  I would trust vapier and seemant w/ more than a handful.
Aug 24 13:38:26 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: that one is next, sec :)
Aug 24 13:38:32 <jhuebel>	Sorry. :-)
Aug 24 13:38:34 <cshields>	avenj: ok..  just ask because it seems the osx thing got out of hand
Aug 24 13:38:56 <jhuebel>	g2boojum: vapier is a god. :-)
Aug 24 13:39:02 <spyderous>	we probably need to get something set up for having fallback mentors.
Aug 24 13:39:13 <dmwaters>	I'll get with plasmaroo, and have him write up a general guideline for the mentor thing re: experienced or not, and we can talk about it
Aug 24 13:39:30 <avenj>	i think if somebody says "i want this other dev too" recruiters should look at how many they're currently mentoring, check on their status, and make a decision about whether or not they'll accept another new dev at that time (or perhaps find a new mentor)
Aug 24 13:39:35 <avenj>	but i might be getting ahead of things here :)
Aug 24 13:40:02 <dmwaters>	ok, how many new devs should a mentor have at once?
Aug 24 13:40:10 <jhuebel>	2
Aug 24 13:40:13 <plasmaroo>	Not more than 3.
Aug 24 13:40:15 <spyderous>	avenj: the easiest way for recruiters to do that would be to maintain a page of currently training devs. reading every single open dev bug is a lot of work.
Aug 24 13:40:16 <jhuebel>	For and average mentor.
Aug 24 13:40:21 <avenj>	spyderous: yep
Aug 24 13:40:21 <cshields>	recruiter discretion is fair enough
Aug 24 13:40:22 <jhuebel>	s/and/an/
Aug 24 13:40:33 <dmwaters>	I say a max of 3
Aug 24 13:40:38 <spyderous>	how about 3 with petitions for exceptions
Aug 24 13:40:46 <dmwaters>	spyderous: agreed.
Aug 24 13:40:49 <jhuebel>	I can live with 3.
Aug 24 13:41:03 <g2boojum>	fine
Aug 24 13:41:06 <dmwaters>	spyderous: but they'd better have a real good reason to  want to take on more ;)
Aug 24 13:41:10 <spyderous>	if someone shows they do a great job with 3 and wants another, let 'em try 4.
Aug 24 13:41:15 <spyderous>	same w/ 4, 5, etc.
Aug 24 13:41:35 <dmwaters>	spyderous: generally when people take on more then 3 they get swamped though
Aug 24 13:41:36 <jhuebel>	I think it should be VERY rare to have more than 4 or 5.
Aug 24 13:41:50 <spyderous>	dmwaters: right. generally. but we want to allow for the corner cases too
Aug 24 13:41:58 *	jhuebel nods.
Aug 24 13:42:00 <dmwaters>	I've gotten swamped with juggeling more then 3 and I just check quizzes and set up accounts;p
Aug 24 13:42:15 *	jhuebel nods to dmwaters.
Aug 24 13:42:53 <dmwaters>	ok, anything else in the recruiting category before we move on?
Aug 24 13:43:00 <spyderous>	i also feel like we may be leaving docs and infra people out of this.
Aug 24 13:43:10 <dmwaters>	spyderous: hmm?
Aug 24 13:43:18 <spyderous>	are they subject to the same things?
Aug 24 13:43:22 <dmwaters>	not really
Aug 24 13:43:26 <spyderous>	there ya go.
Aug 24 13:43:27 <tgall_foo>	besides saying  Ithink you folks in recruiting do a good job keeping it all going
Aug 24 13:43:28 <jhuebel>	infra kinda handles their own world.
Aug 24 13:43:36 <dmwaters>	the only thing they have to do is take the staff quiz, and they have no eval period
Aug 24 13:43:48 <cshields>	yeah..   most of our people don't touch portage, so the quiz does no good for -infra
Aug 24 13:44:24 <spyderous>	what we should probably have is a general "gentoo" base quiz that everyone needs, then add-ons for ebuild, infra, doc, etc.
Aug 24 13:44:24 <jhuebel>	Where's klieber, anyway? Figured he would be here.
Aug 24 13:44:36 <dmwaters>	spyderous: that's what the staff quiz is for
Aug 24 13:44:58 <spyderous>	dmwaters: is it set up exactly like that, with allowances for all the groups?
Aug 24 13:44:58 <cshields>	jhuebel: he started a new position last week and has been hammered with meetings to get him oriented
Aug 24 13:45:07 <spyderous>	portage devs too
Aug 24 13:45:36 <jhuebel>	cshields: That sucks. I know the feeling.
Aug 24 13:45:39 <dmwaters>	spyderous: well, the way it works is that the staff quiz is required  for everyone. then the ebuild quiz  is for those with portage access
Aug 24 13:45:58 <spyderous>	but there aren't doc/infra/portage quizzes for everyone else?
Aug 24 13:46:25 <dmwaters>	spyderous: it's up to kurt  to train his devs ans swift for the doc people
Aug 24 13:46:43 <dmwaters>	spyderous: we "do not" need 56 quizzes to maintain.
Aug 24 13:46:47 <spyderous>	then why is it up for devrel to train ebuild devs? doesn't make sense to me.
Aug 24 13:46:52 <spyderous>	s/for/to
Aug 24 13:47:02 <avenj>	spyderous: who should train ebuild devs?
Aug 24 13:47:03 <jhuebel>	spyderous: devrel doesn't train. Mentors do.
Aug 24 13:47:12 <avenj>	not train, really, but quiz, etc
Aug 24 13:47:15 <spyderous>	devrel maintains the ebuild quiz
Aug 24 13:47:22 <avenj>	docs and infra have clear teams in charge
Aug 24 13:47:32 *	dmwaters nods at avenj
Aug 24 13:47:34 <avenj>	if their current recruiting processes are working well for them, i don't really take issue with it
Aug 24 13:47:38 <spyderous>	we oughta throw the ebuild quiz at QA.
Aug 24 13:47:43 <avenj>	why?
Aug 24 13:47:50 <avenj>	if they want to maintain it, they can
Aug 24 13:48:00 <avenj>	but i don't really see the need to outsource something that isn't really a problem for us
Aug 24 13:48:06 *	dmwaters nods at avenj
Aug 24 13:48:30 <spyderous>	bah, i don't feel strongly enough about this to keep arguing. let's move on.
Aug 24 13:48:38 <dmwaters>	thing is most all of our devs have cvs access, if someone breaks something guess who people come running to.
Aug 24 13:49:00 <cshields>	spyderous: if you want to chat later about infra recruiting I'd be happy to
Aug 24 13:49:10 <spyderous>	cshields: let's.
Aug 24 13:49:14 <dmwaters>	anyway..
Aug 24 13:49:34 <dmwaters>	anything else on recruiting before we go on to the next thing
Aug 24 13:49:44 <cshields>	no
Aug 24 13:50:04 <spyderous>	yeah. i'd like to say, dmwaters, you're doing a great job at it.
Aug 24 13:50:17 <plasmaroo>	:-)
Aug 24 13:50:22 <jhuebel>	suck up ;-)
Aug 24 13:50:38 <dmwaters>	spyderous: ok, I owe you a beer when I get to osu, right?:)
Aug 24 13:50:50 <spyderous>	you owe me 5 for that. =P
Aug 24 13:50:55 <dmwaters>	you got it :)
Aug 24 13:50:57 <plasmaroo>	Hehe.
Aug 24 13:51:01 <dmwaters>	I'll throw in dinner to :)
Aug 24 13:51:04 <jhuebel>	There's always a catch. :-)
Aug 24 13:51:13 <plasmaroo>	jhuebel, indeed.
Aug 24 13:51:14 <dmwaters>	ok, seemant, here?
Aug 24 13:51:35 <seemant>	I'm here
Aug 24 13:51:39 <dmwaters>	staffing needs page
Aug 24 13:51:49 <plasmaroo>	What about it?
Aug 24 13:51:51 <dmwaters>	I want to get in the gwn regularly, ( the link)
Aug 24 13:51:51 <seemant>	sorry?
Aug 24 13:52:00 <avenj>	brb
Aug 24 13:52:12 <dmwaters>
Aug 24 13:52:17 <seemant>	oh right
Aug 24 13:52:17 <seemant>	ok
Aug 24 13:52:41 <dmwaters>	it's easy to edit thanks to plasmaroo :)
Aug 24 13:52:49 *	plasmaroo blushes.
Aug 24 13:53:20 <cshields>	can we just link the staffing needs page to the main project index page?   :)    seriously, everyone needs help right now, and I've heard of a few groups looking for help that aren't on the list.  so my question is exactly what are we trying to solve with this page, how often will it be updated, and how will it be promoted
Aug 24 13:53:23 <cshields>	(sorry, 3 questions)
Aug 24 13:54:14 <dmwaters>	well, personally, it lets me know what projects need help for pointing people, 2, it also gives people an idea of what we want
Aug 24 13:54:16 <plasmaroo>	cshields: << There?
Aug 24 13:54:49 <cshields>	plasmaroo: there we go.   :D
Aug 24 13:54:49 <spyderous>	not only do we have needs, but they're prioritized.
Aug 24 13:54:56 <plasmaroo>	cshields: Yes.
Aug 24 13:55:00 <spyderous>	sure everyone needs people, but there are different levels of desperation.
Aug 24 13:55:06 <dmwaters>	cshields: if people  want to be added to the page, well, it hasn't gone live yet for 1, but they can mail recruiters
Aug 24 13:55:09 <plasmaroo>	cshields: I'll need to tweak the stylesheet a bit and it will be added.
Aug 24 13:55:19 <cshields>	dmwaters: ok
Aug 24 13:55:55 <cshields>	plasmaroo: no no..  I was joking in that we don't need a seperate page, we can just point people to the project page when they ask "who needs my help"?
Aug 24 13:56:14 <plasmaroo>	cshields: Oh.
Aug 24 13:56:22 <plasmaroo>	cshields: How would one integrate that?
Aug 24 13:56:39 <cshields>	sorry, I'm not arguing against the staffing needs page, I think it's a good idea, I just want to see that it is done and committed to or it will go stale and not work
Aug 24 13:56:49 <plasmaroo>	cshields: Also, not all project and person is listed so it won't really work.
Aug 24 13:57:01 <plasmaroo>	s/project is/projects are/
Aug 24 13:57:18 <cshields>	plasmaroo: nevermind..  :)
Aug 24 13:57:24 <plasmaroo>	cshields: Oki.
Aug 24 13:57:42 <dmwaters>	cshields: we can only keep it as up to date as the projects give us info  so to speak
Aug 24 13:58:00 <dmwaters>	cshields: anotherwords if kernel needs help and they don't tell us, then they won't get added
Aug 24 13:58:05 <spyderous>	and obviously we know who's leaving and joining, so we have a bit of an idea.
Aug 24 13:58:15 <dmwaters>	spyderous: nod
Aug 24 13:58:32 <cshields>	and do we feel that all of the projects will contribute to this continually?
Aug 24 13:58:38 <dmwaters>	seemant: is it possible to get the link in the gwn on a regular basis?
Aug 24 13:58:43 <spyderous>	cshields: only those who want help. =)
Aug 24 13:59:17 <cshields>	I could be mistaken, but I thought I've seen a couple of cries for help on our ml's since the initial request for staffing needs went out
Aug 24 13:59:28 <spyderous>	one was dialup, which is on there
Aug 24 13:59:31 <dmwaters>	cshields: I haven't seen anything on core
Aug 24 13:59:37 <cshields>	so it will need to be spread to the different leaders
Aug 24 13:59:39 <dmwaters>	cshields: and java is on there like they asked
Aug 24 13:59:52 <cshields>	okie
Aug 24 13:59:58 <dmwaters>	cshields: I'm going to take in live after this meeting
Aug 24 13:59:59 <spyderous>	java's on there? not on the page i'm seeing.
Aug 24 14:00:05 <dmwaters>	um...
Aug 24 14:00:12 <dmwaters>	did I forget to commit it?
Aug 24 14:00:26 <dmwaters>	yeah, I did...
Aug 24 14:00:28 <dmwaters>	ok...
Aug 24 14:00:45 <dmwaters>	sorry guys...
Aug 24 14:00:49 <cshields>	I'm also thinking of KDE..  I know they can use help, but caleb probably hasn't had time to draft a needs request
Aug 24 14:01:26 <dmwaters>	well, I'll take it live after this, and see what kind of response we get
Aug 24 14:01:33 <cshields>	cool
Aug 24 14:01:36 <spyderous>	haven't we already gotten responses from the page?
Aug 24 14:01:41 <dmwaters>	spyderous: no
Aug 24 14:01:46 <dmwaters>	spyderous: it's not public yet
Aug 24 14:02:11 <cshields>	how/where will the list be advertised
Aug 24 14:02:24 <cshields>	"Want to help?" link on the front page?
Aug 24 14:02:30 <dmwaters>	cshields: see what i've been asking seemant about the gwn....
Aug 24 14:02:35 <cshields>	(or "Job openings" ala sf)
Aug 24 14:02:40 <spyderous>	dmwaters: it is according to google
Aug 24 14:02:44 <dmwaters>	gah
Aug 24 14:02:45 <seemant>	dmwaters: yes
Aug 24 14:02:50 <seemant>	I'll get on it and make sure it happens
Aug 24 14:02:52 <cshields>	dmwaters: I don't think the gwn is enough.. that's a good start though
Aug 24 14:03:12 <dmwaters>	cshields: you know  how many people are on the gwn ml that gets sent out?
Aug 24 14:03:17 <dmwaters>	8000
Aug 24 14:03:22 <spyderous>	that's it?
Aug 24 14:03:35 <cshields>	dmwaters: and we have what, 62,000 forums users, and even more Gentoo users overall
Aug 24 14:03:37 <dmwaters>	spyderous: 8000 is a lot of people to me:p
Aug 24 14:03:52 <jhuebel>	Well, I wonder if putting it on the front page would invite "glory seekers", when the GWN would be people with a greater interest in Gentoo.
Aug 24 14:04:00 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: nodnod
Aug 24 14:04:09 <cshields>	dmwaters: basically, it is not going to hurt to plaster the link everywhere, and if people see it in two different places they will have to live with that
Aug 24 14:04:51 <dmwaters>	cshields: but do we want hundreds of "I want to be dev but I know nothing about gentoo" requests?
Aug 24 14:05:12 <cshields>	I don't mind glory seekers..  if they are going to contribute then those people are usually invested enough into their work to make it good
Aug 24 14:05:20 <jhuebel>	No offense, but a project of our size needs serious people willing to actually work. Not people who just think it would be cool to be a dev.
Aug 24 14:05:34 <cshields>	ok, I see what you mean now
Aug 24 14:05:41 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: that's exactly the point I'm trying to make
Aug 24 14:05:48 <spyderous>	what about people who think it's cool to be respected for their good work.
Aug 24 14:05:51 <jhuebel>	Gentoo is a job.
Aug 24 14:06:05 <jhuebel>	spyderous: That's fine. Those are serious people.
Aug 24 14:06:36 <cshields>	ok, well on top of the GWN what else were you thinking?  Would this be static somewhere (like on the web site) where people who didn't read a certain GWN can find a list of needs?
Aug 24 14:06:44 <dmwaters>	cshields: I think what we could do, though is do a news item for it when it goes live to show  people it is out there
Aug 24 14:07:06 <dmwaters>	cshields: it'llb e linked off the devrel site
Aug 24 14:07:09 <cshields>	dmwaters: right.  my concern is after that
Aug 24 14:07:12 <cshields>	ok, thanks  :)
Aug 24 14:07:17 <jhuebel>	That might work. We'll have to endure an initial glut of applications, but then it should settle down.
Aug 24 14:07:30 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: we can handle that
Aug 24 14:07:33 *	jhuebel nods.
Aug 24 14:07:43 <cshields>	jhuebel: if the need is there then the need is there..  we should welcome the applicants
Aug 24 14:07:52 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: after a couple of weeks with out knowing we were going to be in the gwn I got used to it :)
Aug 24 14:08:06 <jhuebel>	heh
Aug 24 14:08:06 <spyderous>	i'd guess most people don't even realize the devrel page exists
Aug 24 14:08:19 <dmwaters>	cshields: yes, but again, we need to be careful that we don't have an influx of devs who don't do anything
Aug 24 14:08:23 <jhuebel>	spyderous: Quite possibly.
Aug 24 14:08:47 <cshields>	spyderous: well, the concern there is that if I am just a user wanting to contribute to Gentoo, where will I go to see how I can help?  I won't know who "devrel" is..
Aug 24 14:08:53 <cshields>	dmwaters: true
Aug 24 14:08:55 <spyderous>	we should probably have a link from the homepage that says something like "Participating the Gentoo development"
Aug 24 14:09:09 <cshields>	yes
Aug 24 14:09:15 <jhuebel>	Sounds reasonable.
Aug 24 14:09:18 <spyderous>	s/the/in
Aug 24 14:09:24 <dmwaters>	have it link to the devrel page though
Aug 24 14:09:24 *	spyderous tries to wake up, fails
Aug 24 14:09:25 <jhuebel>	But not a direct link to the staffing needs page.
Aug 24 14:09:32 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: exactly
Aug 24 14:09:46 <spyderous>	nah. i was thinking of a page that basically says, "Do you have what it takes? Here's what you need:"
Aug 24 14:09:47 *	dmwaters dcc's spyderous  coffee
Aug 24 14:09:52 <jhuebel>	We want the applicants to read about the recruiting requirements first.
Aug 24 14:09:56 <spyderous>	"If you don't have this yet, here's how to get there"
Aug 24 14:10:10 <dmwaters>	spyderous: devrel page has most of that already though
Aug 24 14:10:16 *	jhuebel nods.
Aug 24 14:10:18 <dmwaters>	or even the recruiters page
Aug 24 14:10:52 <spyderous>	right, recruiters page could probably fit -- anything that isn't there yet, can easily be added.
Aug 24 14:11:01 <dmwaters>	ok
Aug 24 14:11:07 <dmwaters>	summary of this:
Aug 24 14:11:15 <dmwaters>	seemant is going to see about getting this in the gwn
Aug 24 14:11:25 <dmwaters>	I'm going to take it live, after this meeting
Aug 24 14:11:36 <dmwaters>	corey, who does the news items
Aug 24 14:12:05 <cshields>	dmwaters: in the gwn?  Carlos?
Aug 24 14:12:10 <spyderous>	homepage
Aug 24 14:12:12 <dmwaters>	no, on the webpage...
Aug 24 14:12:22 <cshields>	oh..  we can get Kurt or Jeff to do it
Aug 24 14:12:40 <dmwaters>	after I take it live i'll leave it to you to get someone to write one up
Aug 24 14:12:51 <cshields>	sure.  I'll go find my whip
Aug 24 14:13:04 <dmwaters>	ok, recruiters page
Aug 24 14:13:07 <spyderous>	just copy whatever she writes to -dev or -core sayint it's live.
Aug 24 14:13:11 <spyderous>	saying*
Aug 24 14:13:26 <dmwaters>	yeah, but fix my horrid spalling and grammar:p
Aug 24 14:13:27 <cshields>	spyderous: ssshh!  she wasn't suppose to know!   :)
Aug 24 14:13:31 <dmwaters>	spelling....
Aug 24 14:13:46 <dmwaters>	anyway..
Aug 24 14:13:50 <dmwaters>	recruiters page
Aug 24 14:14:02 <dmwaters>	should we break that down a bit into a recruiters policy?
Aug 24 14:14:15 <dmwaters>	it looks like  that page is getting real crowded
Aug 24 14:14:34 <jhuebel>	Yeah, it could use some breaking up.
Aug 24 14:15:33 <spyderous>	that stuff is mostly technical info for recruiters/mentors. we can move that somewhere else, and repurpose that as a public recruitment page
Aug 24 14:16:11 <jhuebel>	Well, we've always liked the new devs to know what the recruitment process involves.
Aug 24 14:16:21 <spyderous>	or put the public stuff somewhere like recruiters/joining.xml
Aug 24 14:16:31 <dmwaters>	spyderous:  nod
Aug 24 14:16:39 <dmwaters>	it just doesn't look right how it  is now, heh
Aug 24 14:17:05 <dmwaters>	plasmaroo: I have a job for you!:)
Aug 24 14:17:10 <jhuebel>	brb, phone call
Aug 24 14:17:12 <plasmaroo>	dmwaters: Hm?
Aug 24 14:17:20 <dmwaters>	I'll get with you after
Aug 24 14:17:24 <plasmaroo>	Oki.
Aug 24 14:17:28 <dmwaters>	but, breaking down the recruiters page
Aug 24 14:17:41 <dmwaters>	seemant: still here?
Aug 24 14:17:43 <spyderous>	jhuebel: it could be more helpful to first get people interested (or get them knowing they aren't ready yet), and then when they're pretty sure they wanna be a dev, give them all the nitty gritty.
Aug 24 14:18:07 <dmwaters>	general info on the front page technical stuff inside
Aug 24 14:18:36 <seemant>	I'm here sorry
Aug 24 14:19:15 <dmwaters>	seemant: how's life in user relations land?
Aug 24 14:19:30 <seemant>	dmwaters: non-existent at the moment, I'm afraid
Aug 24 14:19:45 <dmwaters>	what should we do with it?
Aug 24 14:22:11 <seemant>	not sure :/
Aug 24 14:22:23 <dmwaters>	something to think about
Aug 24 14:22:24 <spyderous>	find some more forums admins to join =)
Aug 24 14:22:46 <dmwaters>	well, that's basically it for the topics I had
Aug 24 14:22:52 <dmwaters>	anyone have anything else?
Aug 24 14:23:00 <seemant>	spyderous: yep, basically
Aug 24 14:23:12 <spyderous>	i'm a little surprised stuart isn't here.
Aug 24 14:23:20 <g2boojum>	spyderous: He can rarely make this time.
Aug 24 14:23:22 <spyderous>	was there anything on his list we should discuss?
Aug 24 14:23:51 <g2boojum>	spyderous: Yes, typing it out now.
Aug 24 14:24:33 <g2boojum>	Stuart proposed an official probation period _after_ getting cvs privs, with the mentor needing to sign off after 30 days or so stating that everything looks good.
Aug 24 14:24:50 <dmwaters>	ah, so that's what he means
Aug 24 14:24:53 <dmwaters>	meant
Aug 24 14:25:04 <dmwaters>	well, there is the 30 day period
Aug 24 14:25:08 <dmwaters>	after joining
Aug 24 14:25:20 <dmwaters>	though we've never had the mentors sign off on it
Aug 24 14:25:39 <dmwaters>	but my question is, if we do, who says those mentors are following up on their devs
Aug 24 14:25:52 <spyderous>	the presumption is that we can trust the mentors.
Aug 24 14:26:09 <spyderous>	if there's no trust, we have bigger things to worry about.
Aug 24 14:26:14 <g2boojum>	I believe the idea is that by having the mentor sign-off, the mentor is taking some personal responsibility.
Aug 24 14:26:51 <dmwaters>	how do we enforce it though
Aug 24 14:26:54 <cshields>	but do the mentors really care?  else it seems we wouldn't have the problems we do have..
Aug 24 14:27:03 <dmwaters>	what are the consiquences if they dont
Aug 24 14:27:09 <cshields>	right
Aug 24 14:27:15 <dmwaters>	cshields: exactly
Aug 24 14:27:33 <g2boojum>	dmwaters: Presumably the mentor is no longer allowed to be a mentor.
Aug 24 14:27:52 <cshields>	sounds good to me
Aug 24 14:27:58 <dmwaters>	do the rest of you agree?
Aug 24 14:28:03 <spyderous>	ah, i was talking to deedra about a timeout for this sort of thing
Aug 24 14:28:12 <dmwaters>	oh, yes, that
Aug 24 14:28:22 <spyderous>	basically .. rather than forever, we say "you can't mentor for <x time period"
Aug 24 14:28:44 <cshields>	sounds better
Aug 24 14:28:49 <spyderous>	double the time period every time it happens to someone
Aug 24 14:29:05 <dmwaters>	say 30 days for first, 60 for second, 90 for third, after that your sol
Aug 24 14:29:33 <spyderous>	you don't even need to ban them from mentoring .. the doubling makes it unrealistic at some point anyway.
Aug 24 14:29:51 <dmwaters>	hehe
Aug 24 14:29:52 <spyderous>	say you start with 2 months.
Aug 24 14:30:09 <dmwaters>	but kurt has a point when do we give too many chances
Aug 24 14:30:27 <dmwaters>	especially with something like this
Aug 24 14:30:59 <dmwaters>	I think that it should apply the same way with devs who continually mess up, 3 shots and then that's it
Aug 24 14:31:08 <spyderous>	if you screw up 3 times, you've spent more than a year unable to mentor. given that many people don't even stick around for that long plus the minimum 6 months to start mentoring..
Aug 24 14:31:13 <dmwaters>	meaning 3 timeouts and then that's it in this case
Aug 24 14:31:29 <dmwaters>	hmm
Aug 24 14:31:32 <dmwaters>	ok
Aug 24 14:31:36 <dmwaters>	point taken :)
Aug 24 14:32:16 <dmwaters>	do you guys like the timeouts better?
Aug 24 14:32:44 *	plasmaroo would rather have timeouts instead of X turns and that's it.
Aug 24 14:32:49 <cshields>	need to go change..  baby spitup all over.  brb
Aug 24 14:33:22 <g2boojum>	I have no real preference
Aug 24 14:33:30 <dmwaters>	cshields: fun fun
Aug 24 14:33:42 <dmwaters>	timeouts it is then.
Aug 24 14:34:00 <spyderous>	we might want to put this up to -core too
Aug 24 14:34:19 <g2boojum>	spyderous: I agree. 
Aug 24 14:34:29 <dmwaters>	hmm
Aug 24 14:34:36 <dmwaters>	you know what that will start?
Aug 24 14:34:48 <dmwaters>	people won't like it anyway we give it to them
Aug 24 14:34:50 <spyderous>	what, a public forum of opinion? =P
Aug 24 14:34:51 <cshields>	*sigh*
Aug 24 14:34:56 <seemant>	make it an RFC
Aug 24 14:35:17 <dmwaters>	and what do we do if they say no, then continue to complain that we're not doing our job?
Aug 24 14:35:32 <dmwaters>	that'smy thing
Aug 24 14:35:50 <spyderous>	don't let them say no without a valid alternative.
Aug 24 14:37:08 <dmwaters>	my thing is that something needs to be done with it
Aug 24 14:37:53 <g2boojum>	spyderous: Yep.  The biggest complaint about devrel right now is that devrel has been imposing guidelines, instead of suggesting them.  If we don't ask for opinions things will just get worse.
Aug 24 14:38:17 <g2boojum>	(Note, I don't agree that devrel has been imposing anything; I'm just voicing the complaint.)
Aug 24 14:38:32 <cshields>	give a deadline for discussion to end...  say a 1 week RFC
Aug 24 14:38:53 <dmwaters>	err, power went out back
Aug 24 14:39:10 <dmwaters>	nod.
Aug 24 14:39:28 <jhuebel>	back, sorry long phonecall. :-/
Aug 24 14:39:30 <jhuebel>	What I miss?
Aug 24 14:39:56 <dmwaters>	g2boojum: I think that the big problem I see with those complaints is that people complain when we don't do things like all the complaining that braught on this discussion, and they complain when we try to make things better
Aug 24 14:40:14 <dmwaters>	g2boojum: so, where do we draw the line, and how do we do it
Aug 24 14:40:53 <dmwaters>	I'll send it to core, I'm just readying myself for the fact that people are going to scream about it
Aug 24 14:41:15 <seemant>	dmwaters: just make sure the subject has "RFE" somewhere in it
Aug 24 14:41:21 <seemant>	sorry, "RFC"
Aug 24 14:41:24 <dmwaters>	nodnod
Aug 24 14:41:58 <seemant>	(or RYB, request you bugger off)
Aug 24 14:42:07 *	dmwaters smirks
Aug 24 14:42:17 <dmwaters>	anyone have anything else?:)
Aug 24 14:42:19 <g2boojum>	dmwaters: With excessive transparency, a willingness to listen, and constant invocations of "if you have a better idea that actually makes sense...".  Your job is inherently a lousy one.  We'll do our best to help, but people will always complain.
Aug 24 14:42:36 *	dmwaters agrees:p
Aug 24 14:42:48 <g2boojum>	dmwaters: Yes.  Stuart also proposed having project leads appoint a liason for the handbook.
Aug 24 14:43:02 <dmwaters>	yes, I was going to send a mail to managers about that
Aug 24 14:43:26 <dmwaters>	I thought that one was going to be in the managers meeting, he was quite upset it wasn't
Aug 24 14:43:37 <dmwaters>	but, I'll send a mail to managers
Aug 24 14:43:38 <g2boojum>	I think what he's trying to say is that each project, and many times each herd, has specialized knowledge about how their ebuilds work (python and perl eclasses, webapp-config, gnome/kde eclasses, etcetera).
Aug 24 14:43:48 <dmwaters>	exactly
Aug 24 14:44:02 <g2boojum>	That knowledge should, wherever possible, find its way into the dev handbook.
Aug 24 14:44:14 <g2boojum>	Of course, I could be completely off base, but that was my guess.
Aug 24 14:44:27 <dmwaters>	oh
Aug 24 14:44:29 <dmwaters>	and
Aug 24 14:44:35 <dmwaters>	the other  thing he suggested
Aug 24 14:44:52 <dmwaters>	he wanted a table of new devs, their mentors and where they want to join
Aug 24 14:44:59 <g2boojum>	(He also proposed a new-dev table, but I'm ignoring it since the new-dev bugs are public.  If stuart wants to suggest that's not enough, he can argue it himself.)
Aug 24 14:45:08 <dmwaters>	agreed.
Aug 24 14:45:24 <dmwaters>	if people would follow the new dev bug syntax, it would be easy to see what bugs are which
Aug 24 14:45:46 *	dmwaters notes that a lot of times people don't use the syntax.
Aug 24 14:46:20 <spyderous>	it's easy to search when you know what you're looking for, but it's not easy to display a table like stuart wants
Aug 24 14:46:28 <dmwaters>	spyderous: nod
Aug 24 14:46:36 <dmwaters>	spyderous: that's more overhead for us though
Aug 24 14:46:57 <dmwaters>	spyderous: and if we do all of the stuff we talked about doday, we don't need that overhead
Aug 24 14:47:41 <dmwaters>	fortunately the extended probation period will take a lot of pressure off recruiters
Aug 24 14:47:47 <dmwaters>	oh guys
Aug 24 14:47:51 <dmwaters>	by the way
Aug 24 14:47:54 <dmwaters>	before I forget
Aug 24 14:48:13 <dmwaters>	sept 10th through the 17th, recruiters  is on vacation:p
Aug 24 14:48:24 *	dmwaters winks at spyderous 
Aug 24 14:48:39 <cshields>	sorry, I don't think that the recruiters vacation time was officially approved
Aug 24 14:48:40 <cshields>	;)
Aug 24 14:48:56 <seemant>	we didn't file in triplicate?
Aug 24 14:49:01 <dmwaters>	donnie and I are going to be in the moving faze, eradicator is swamped with work, that'd onl y leave seemant and jhuebel
Aug 24 14:49:01 <jhuebel>	The question is, can you stop it? ;-)
Aug 24 14:49:29 <spyderous>	yeah, my work has been really key to recruiters in the past few months. =P
Aug 24 14:49:37 <dmwaters>	cshields: if you move for me, I won't go :p
Aug 24 14:49:38 <cshields>	hehehe..   I think we'll live and life will go on..  people will bitch, but life goes on
Aug 24 14:50:10 <dmwaters>	cshields: personally, I don't care, it won't hurt them to wait a week, and moving is kinda important
Aug 24 14:50:31 <cshields>	dmwaters: I'm just pulling your chain!!   :)
Aug 24 14:50:31 <dmwaters>	spyderous: my secret plan was to dump my work on you while I move but you're moving to:p
Aug 24 14:50:39 <dmwaters>	cshields: I know :)
Aug 24 14:51:07 <seemant>	just dump it on cshields 
Aug 24 14:51:14 <spyderous>	can we officially decree that dialup sucks?
Aug 24 14:51:15 <dmwaters>	lol..
Aug 24 14:51:21 <spyderous>	no RFC on that, either.
Aug 24 14:51:22 <dmwaters>	only if I can have the baby
Aug 24 14:51:31 <cshields>	spyderous: I'm on a cell modem right now, which sucks worse
Aug 24 14:51:33 <dmwaters>	spyderous: yes, we can
Aug 24 14:51:43 <cshields>	one of those sierra wireless aircards
Aug 24 14:51:54 <spyderous>	cshields: heh. i'm on my laptop, wifi through my router, to my desktop, which is signed onto aol.
Aug 24 14:52:02 <seemant>	where do you get those wonderful toys?
Aug 24 14:52:05 <dmwaters>	spyderous: having fun yet?
Aug 24 14:52:12 <spyderous>	dmwaters: no.
Aug 24 14:52:21 <--	tgall_foo (~tgall@...) has left #gentoo-devrel ("Leaving")
Aug 24 14:52:33 <jhuebel>	K, so is the meeting over?
Aug 24 14:52:34 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: want to send the logs to the devrel ml?
Aug 24 14:52:40 <cshields>	spyderous: should we speed test at  ;)
Aug 24 14:52:44 <jhuebel>	K, will do.
Aug 24 14:52:48 <dmwaters>	jhuebel: thanks

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