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To: gentoo-devrel@g.o
From: Tim Yamin <plasmaroo@g.o>
Subject: 20050705 Meeting log
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:50:35 +0100
Attached, enjoy!
19:00 <@kingtaco|laptop> I have one question about this investagative/judges split
19:00 <@dmwaters> i've got 3 clocks with 3 times
19:00 **** dmwaters shrugs
19:01 <@kloeri_> hi all
19:01 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: hi
19:01 <@kingtaco|laptop> lets say I'm a judge(or whatever we are calling it)
19:01 :::: zypher!~zypher@... has quit: Connection timed out
19:01 <@kingtaco|laptop> am I still able to do my own investigations?
19:01 <@plasmaroo> Own investigationss?
19:01 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by dmwaters
19:01 <@dmwaters> ok
19:01 <@dmwaters> let's do this meeting thing:)
19:01 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: ping0r
19:01 <@plasmaroo> Yesss?
19:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, am I able to collect facts for myself
19:02 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: you are logmaster
19:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> thats what I mean
19:02 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: No, I believe not.
19:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> hrm
19:02 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: I think that's the job of the investigative peope
19:02 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: jugdes can not do investigating
19:02 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: yes
19:02 <@plasmaroo> Otherwise, why the heck do we need the investigative people :)
19:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> that sounds like a huge bottleneck
19:02 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: hrm
19:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, thats been my point sense the getgo
19:02 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: Welcome to a bureaucracy
19:02 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: how so if there are a team of 3 doing it?
19:03 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: if you have questions, then raise them durring the hearing or what ever it's called
19:03 <@fmccor> .
19:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, because if I want to know more about "X", then I have to ask someone else do it
19:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> where as I could just look myself
19:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> for example
19:03 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: The idea is you judge on what is given to you.
19:03 <@plasmaroo> I think...
19:03 <@urilith> if a member of the judicial panel does his own investigations, it can not be proven that that particular member is only using publicly available information
19:03 <@urilith> which defeats the proposal
19:03 <@plasmaroo> Yeah.
19:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> well
19:04 **** fmccor will work as invesirgapro, not as judjde
19:04 <@kingtaco|laptop> I don't see how we can have internal judges then
19:04 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: hm?
19:04 <@kingtaco|laptop> take for example me as a judge again
19:04 <@kingtaco|laptop> so I see dmwaters mouthing off in #gentoo-ferrets
19:04 <@plasmaroo> *g*
19:04 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
19:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> am I to ignore what I see if and investigator doesn't see it?
19:05 <@urilith> no, you are to provide it to the investigators
19:05 <@plasmaroo> Urm... how about you send evidence?
19:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> ok
19:05 <@urilith> and as long as they provide that with the relevant evidence, you are welcome to use it
19:05 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: i'm assuming, that you can give what you see to the investigators
19:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> so I can collect evidence
19:05 <@plasmaroo> Yes, but you must give it.
19:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> but I have to run it through the investigators
19:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> ok, that makes a lot more sense
19:05 <@plasmaroo> Sounds something like that :)
19:06 <@dmwaters> we should document that:)
19:06 <@kingtaco|laptop> yes, we should
19:06 <@dmwaters> urilith: fmccor: :)
19:06 <@kingtaco|laptop> it's an ambigious point
19:06 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo:
19:06 <@urilith> i dont really think judges should be going around purposely investigating, since that could lead to more problems like we saw with ciaranm
19:06 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: and a good one
19:06 <@fmccor> yes?
19:06 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yeah, if they fix it up it'll be XMLified
19:06 <@urilith> but i dont think handing over evidence like the situation you gave above would be too bad
19:06 <@plasmaroo> Also
19:06 <@dmwaters> fmccor: can you work somethng like this into that?
19:06 <@plasmaroo> How are we going to deal with personal attacks on investigators/judges/ombudsmen/whoever
19:07 <@kingtaco|laptop> urilith, I don't know about purposefully
19:07 <@urilith> shouldnt that go to the managers?
19:07 <@dmwaters> that should probably go to jason and i
19:07 <@urilith> or what she said
19:07 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, send em to me, I'll beat them up real good.....
19:07 <@plasmaroo> I see... but then what if we get into a mess?
19:07 <@kingtaco|laptop> :)
19:07 <@urilith> thats beyond the scope of my proposal
19:07 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: hm?
19:07 <@plasmaroo> Like, then the person says they weren't tried right :P
19:07 <@plasmaroo> And we get back to the ciaran thing
19:07 <@urilith> well, then they go to the appeals board
19:07 <@plasmaroo> How?
19:07 <@urilith> which the proposal does account for
19:08 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: what he said
19:08 <@plasmaroo> They weren't even tried if it goes straight to Jason or Deedra?
19:08 <@kingtaco|laptop> urilith, appeals still go to managers, right?
19:08 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: reread the document for appeals stuff:)
19:08 <@urilith> kingtaco|laptop: as far as i know, yes
19:08 <@kingtaco|laptop> k
19:08 <@dmwaters> wait wait
19:08 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes, but appeals stuff is for things that go through the process
19:08 <@urilith> i dont believe fmmcor changed any functional points of my proposal
19:08 <@plasmaroo> You just said personal attacks go *outside* of the process
19:09 <@urilith> personal attacks could be investigated, with the caveat that the person being attacked cant sit on either board, since that could cause bias
19:09 <@urilith> investigated/heard
19:09 <@plasmaroo> Ok, that'll work.
19:09 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: if people are running around saying fmccor is an ass, that's between him and that dev  if there's a problem, they should take it to ombudsman, if it doesn't get resolved, then they'd better have more then 'fmccor is an ass"
19:09 <@kingtaco|laptop> urilith, I think it's going to be hard being unbiased in any case
19:09 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I see.
19:09 <@dmwaters> fmccor: no offense
19:09 <@kingtaco|laptop> we arn't trying people we don't know, we are trying our peers
19:10 <@kingtaco|laptop> I don't know how we can't be biased
19:10 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: Agreed.
19:10 <@plasmaroo> :/
19:10 <@fmccor> dmwaters, This is too fast for me to comptrhrnd.  I can't work as judge; I I canwork as envistigaor.
19:10 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: And your SSH is too slow :P
19:11 <@dmwaters> fmccor: i was using you as an example
19:11 <@fmccor> Well, yes,
19:11 <@dmwaters> fmccor: scroll up slightly:)
19:11 <@urilith> if the process was unbiased
19:11 <@urilith> then it goes to the appeals board, like any other way through the process
19:11 <@kingtaco|laptop> the process is unbiased, I'm not disputing that
19:11 <@urilith> since any evidence used to make a decision has to be public
19:11 <@urilith> bias can be displayed
19:12 <@plasmaroo> Does the decision meeting itself have to be public also?
19:12 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: why didn't you raise these points in the past several meetings we've had?
19:12 <@urilith> yes
19:12 <@plasmaroo> Ok, cool.
19:12 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, they didn't come to me until the other day when I was rereading it
19:12 <@urilith> we shouldnt skip sections, since the way you explained it, and the way im thinking, the only way to guarantee unbias would be to go to some kind of judicial board, presumably the management appeals board
19:12 <@kingtaco|laptop> no, managers are just as biased as we are
19:12 <@urilith> but there is no point of appeals past that, so you eliminate the process of appeal for those people
19:12 <@urilith> which isnt fair in my eyes
19:13 <@urilith> they may be, but the personal qualifications of the boards are beyond the proposal
19:13 <@kingtaco|laptop> because the same holds true, they are peers just as we are
19:13 <@urilith> and anything relating to the proposal
19:13 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: Hm, that's an issue...
19:13 <@dmwaters> the only way you're gonna get an opinion is if you go outside gentoo...
19:13 <@urilith> really, its up to us when we elect the boards topick qualified people to serve on the boards
19:13 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, not nesessarly
19:13 <@urilith> the proposal merely attempst to create a set of unbiased policies for handling complaints
19:13 <@plasmaroo> But if half of management is really so biased then I think said person would be just damn out of luck and half of the devs would probably also share the same problem.
19:13 <@kingtaco|laptop> there is nothing wrong with us being biased
19:13 <@plasmaroo> So in essence, it won't really matter.
19:14 <@kingtaco|laptop> the fact that there is more than one means that the bias will be minimal
19:14 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
19:14 <@kingtaco|laptop> but to say that we are unbiased is incorrect
19:14 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
19:14 <@kingtaco|laptop> however, in this case the more "judges" the better
19:14 <@urilith> hmm, then either me or fmmcor miswored something
19:14 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: 5 judges.
19:14 <@kingtaco|laptop> simple statistics
19:14 <@urilith> the proposal is not trying to say the individidual people are unbiased in their opinions
19:14 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: 3 investigators per case.
19:15 <@urilith> since i cant even attempt to give that qualification, especially given the judges were unknown when the proposal was written
19:15 :::: zypher!~zypher@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
19:15 <@plasmaroo> Does evidence from ombudsman count?
19:15 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, if it wern't for logistical reasons, I would say we should have 2 or 4 more judges
19:15 <@urilith> the procedure itself however *is* unbiased, and provides checks and balances to ensure it remains *unbias*
19:15 <@urilith> so saying we give unbiased decisions is accurate so long as the rest of the procedure is followed
19:15 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: there's no reason for such a huge pannel of judges
19:15 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, statistics again
19:15 <@urilith> plasmaroo: any reason it shouldnt?
19:16 <@urilith> should just be counted the same as any other evidence
19:16 <@plasmaroo> urilith: No, asking if it does
19:16 <@urilith> same procedures, etc.
19:16 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Ack, that's what I was checking.
19:16 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: more then that 5, and some won't be involved
19:16 <@kingtaco|laptop> the bigger the pool, the more likly that any personal bias will be counteracted
19:16 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, I'm not saying that we should have more, per say
19:16 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: if enough people don't like someone they're screwed either way
19:16 <@urilith> plasmaroo: its the investigatives team job to determine if a piece of evidence is relevant, then pass it on to the judges to use to make a decision
19:16 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: unless you go outside gentoo
19:16 <@urilith> doesnt matter who it comes from i should think
19:16 <@plasmaroo> urilith: I know.
19:17 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, even then it could be biased
19:17 <@plasmaroo> urilith: I'm simply asking if it could be counted as valid regular evidence. And it can :)
19:17 <@kingtaco|laptop> but we couldn't control it
19:17 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: so, we can't do anything about it
19:17 <@urilith> US judges can be biased personally
19:18 <@urilith> however their decisions cannot
19:18 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, in essance
19:18 <@urilith> the proposal is no different than that
19:18 <@dmwaters> urilith: exactly
19:18 <@urilith> and if the decision is biased
19:18 <@fmccor> I favor small panel, annd trust people to be professionall about it
19:18 <@urilith> we have evidence and decision logs publicly available
19:18 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: let's deal with facts, not "what could be"
19:18 <@urilith> and the appeals panel to deal with that
19:18 <@dmwaters> fmccor: agreed
19:18 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Agreed also.
19:18 <@urilith> this proposal in essence is more or less the way US investigations and decisions happen
19:19 <@urilith> it is just modified to work in a more technical and loosely held together orginization
19:19 <@kingtaco|laptop> how about this:
19:19 <@kingtaco|laptop> we maintain a pool of 9 "judges" then when judging time comes around we pick them randomly
19:19 <@kingtaco|laptop> well
19:19 <@plasmaroo> How is that any better?
19:19 <@kingtaco|laptop> scratch that idea
19:19 <@plasmaroo> :P
19:19 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: we've already voted on the proposal 2 weeks ago, core had a week to make suggestions, we don't need to change it now
19:19 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, I just realized that
19:20 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: ;)
19:20 <@kingtaco|laptop> forget what I said
19:20 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Ummm... so what are we doing now then, heh :)
19:20 **** kingtaco|laptop floods everyones terminals with ^Hs
19:20 <@plasmaroo> ;)
19:20 <@urilith> the meeting email said we were choosing the boards
19:20 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: we're going to try to decide who's going to be where
19:20 <@urilith> unless i misread something
19:20 <@dmwaters> urilith: exactly
19:20 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: So I think we need to do that then.
19:20 **** dostrow_work arives fashionably late
19:20 <@plasmaroo> I think we went a little off-course.
19:21 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: that's what i'm trying to do before you guys started in on this
19:21 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Heh.
19:21 <@plasmaroo> Ok folks, let's get back on track.
19:21 <@dmwaters> alright
19:21 <@dostrow_work> but I'm in the middle of a webinar so likely to be silent
19:21 <@dmwaters> first of all
19:21 <@dmwaters> urilith: can you document the evidence thingie for plasmaroo so he can xmlize it
19:22 <@dmwaters> urilith: and work it into the current document
19:23 <@urilith> current as in fmmcors version?
19:23 <@dmwaters> urilith: yes
19:23 <@kingtaco|laptop> can we agree on a definition of the process that I was pointing out before we decide who does what?
19:23 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Just get me a diff when done.
19:23 <@urilith> what is there to agree on?
19:23 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: i don't understand what you're getting at....
19:23 <@urilith> the process was pretty well definied
19:23 **** plasmaroo neither.
19:23 <@urilith> defined*
19:23 <@kingtaco|laptop> judges collecting/submiting evidence
19:23 <@dmwaters> mike, that's what i'm talking about!
19:24 <@urilith> judges can submit anecdoctal evident
19:24 <@urilith> evidence*
19:24 <@kingtaco|laptop> right, you asked him to document it
19:24 <@urilith> however, they cannot purposely conduct investigations
19:24 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: yes. he knows the proposal, so he should document it.
19:24 <@urilith> if they did then that would get around part of the proposal
19:24 <@kingtaco|laptop> ok
19:24 <@kingtaco|laptop> one more question
19:24 <@kingtaco|laptop> can a judge ask an investigator to investigate a particular subject?
19:25 :::: eradicator!~Jeremy@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
19:25 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o eradicator by ChanServ
19:25 <@kingtaco|laptop> like "I want more info on X"
19:25 <@urilith> yes
19:25 <@kingtaco|laptop> after this I'll shut up for a bit, I promise
19:25 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: they can ask the group as a whole, but i should hope that the team has gotten all the info they can by the hearing.
19:25 <@urilith> although, it would be more along the lines of  "I need more info on X because i do not have enough to make a proper decision"
19:25 <@dmwaters> urilith: agreed
19:26 <@urilith> and if thats the case, the hearing shouldnt be held until enough evidence is collected to hold a hearing
19:26 <@kingtaco|laptop> urilith, it equates to the same thing
19:26 <@urilith> same thing as an indictment hearing
19:26 <@urilith> right, but the wording is a bit clearer
19:26 **** kingtaco|laptop has never been indited
19:26 <@urilith> im adding all of this to the proposal
19:26 <@kingtaco|laptop> cool
19:26 <@urilith> neither have I, but i do know how the process works
19:26 <@kingtaco|laptop> ok, I'm done with the questions(for now)
19:26 <@dmwaters> alright.....
19:26 <@dmwaters> anyway...
19:27 <@dmwaters> back to the origional point of this meeting:)
19:27 <@kingtaco|laptop> heh
19:27 <@dmwaters> it's really obvious most of devrel isn't here
19:27 <@dmwaters> so this doesn't help
19:27 <@plasmaroo> Pick names out of a RNG?
19:27 <@plasmaroo> :P
19:27 <@urilith> could pick names, then poll later for empty spots, or something
19:28 <@dmwaters> i'm picking
19:28 <@dmwaters> urilith: you object to being a judge?
19:28 <@kloeri_> I'm still here although I had some connection problems..
19:28 <@urilith> nope
19:28 <@dmwaters> and fmccor  doesn't care either way
19:28 <@fmccor> OK
19:29 <@dmwaters> heh
19:29 <@dmwaters> so that's 2
19:29 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: pingy
19:29 <@dmwaters> kloeri_: where would you like to be, or would you not want to
19:29 <@kloeri_> I'm happy to help in whatever role
19:30 <@dmwaters> judge, then
19:30 <@kloeri_> ok
19:30 <@dmwaters> seemant: pingy?
19:31 <@dmwaters> spyderous: pingy
19:31 <@dmwaters> hmm
19:32 <@dmwaters> so we have 2 spots left there to fill
19:32 <@dmwaters> i'd say grant, but he's ombudsman so he's out
19:32 :::: vapier!UserBah@... has quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
19:32 <@plasmaroo> And I'm out too
19:32 <@dmwaters> jason and i shouldn't, so we're out
19:32 <@kingtaco|laptop> so...
19:33 <@seemant> dmwaters: talk to me
19:33 <@dmwaters> seemant: feel like being volonteered?
19:34 <@seemant> dmwaters: hmm, depends; do I get a gun
19:34 <@seemant> ?
19:34 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: ?
19:34 <@plasmaroo> Hahahahahaha
19:34 <@dmwaters> seemant: hehe
19:34 <@plasmaroo> seemant: No, but the rumour is it makes your wang ... uh, well, you know
19:34 **** plasmaroo runs
19:34 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: feel like being volonteered?:)
19:34 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: hehe
19:34 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: have to be careful with seemant given that he has been nominated for a position on the forthcoming Council
19:35 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: if he takes it, then we can change things if we need to
19:35 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: depends what am I ebing voulenteered for?
19:35 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: but his opinion is respected, which is what i'm looking for
19:35 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: indeed, as I stated in my prior e-mail
19:35 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: judges.
19:36 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: sure, I don't mind being burned at the stake every now and then, being crispy to the touch can be a good thing
19:36 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: hehe
19:36 <@plasmaroo> dostrow_work: Hehe
19:36 :::: ribosome!~ribosome@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
19:37 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +v ribosome by dmwaters
19:37 <@dmwaters> you got  good timing ribosome :)
19:37 <+ribosome> dmwaters: Last minute problems... I suppose I missed the meeting :\
19:37 <@plasmaroo> No...
19:37 <@kingtaco|laptop> nope
19:37 <@plasmaroo> You just got into the fun bit :P
19:38 <@kingtaco|laptop> right in the middle
19:38 <@dmwaters> ribosome: you're in the middle of it
19:38 <+ribosome> :)
19:38 <@fmccor> No
19:38 <@plasmaroo> Where you volunteer and get sucked into the devil... uh, I mean judge panel
19:38 <@dmwaters> hahahaha
19:38 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: See, being insane is a good thing :P
19:38 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: yes
19:38 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Glad to hear it ;)
19:38 **** plasmaroo grins.
19:39 <+ribosome> Good. I was worried this would play against me ;)
19:39 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: No, don't worry, I live here just fine :P
19:40 <@dmwaters> alright
19:40 <@dmwaters> well
19:40 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: if seemant doesn't take it, you want it?
19:41 <@seemant> dmwaters: nah, I'd rather maintain my status as advisor
19:41 <@kingtaco|laptop> sure
19:41 <@dmwaters> seemant: alright
19:42 <@dmwaters> ok then
19:42 <@dmwaters> next
19:42 <@dmwaters> i think we're going to start with 6 investigators then
19:42 <@dmwaters> this allows for 2 sets of 3, while not overwelming us
19:42 <@dmwaters> objections?
19:42 <@dmwaters> investigators....
19:42 <@dmwaters> even
19:43 <@kingtaco|laptop> seemant, did you decline?
19:43 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: he did
19:43 <@kingtaco|laptop> k
19:43 <@seemant> kingtaco|laptop: I did, sweetheart, it's yours
19:43 <@dmwaters> lol
19:43 <@kingtaco|laptop> w00t!
19:43 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
19:43 <@dmwaters> i take it there are no objections?:)
19:43 <@kloeri_> dmwaters: sounds good
19:43 <@plasmaroo> Objections to what?
19:43 <@plasmaroo> The judges? No.
19:44 <@kingtaco|laptop> who can object to the lord of all tacos?
19:44 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: 6 investigators for now:p
19:44 <@kingtaco|laptop> :P
19:44 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Erm... WFM... What was the original?
19:44 **** dmwaters switched topics:)
19:44 <@plasmaroo> 3?
19:44 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: 10 on the pannel, but we're a bit small for that
19:44 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Six is alright. I'd go for seven.
19:44 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: we can expand later if needed.
19:44 <@plasmaroo> I don't know if we have enough people for seven, but if we do, I'd try.
19:44 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: they can't vote
19:45 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: and there's 3 per case
19:45 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Ah, six is fine then... we shuffle them to the other set per each case?
19:45 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: so an extra won't do much good right now anyway
19:45 <@plasmaroo> Or pick a random three?
19:45 <@urilith> the number of investigators only matters if they dont produce accurate and/or enough evidence
19:45 <@plasmaroo> urilith: I see... fine with me.
19:46 <@dmwaters> ok
19:46 <@plasmaroo> slarti: Wake up
19:46 <@dmwaters> donnie is ombudsman, right?
19:46 <@dmwaters> oh, no he's not
19:46 <@plasmaroo> Don't think so.
19:46 <@plasmaroo> Nope.
19:46 <@dmwaters> hmmmm
19:47 <@dmwaters> any bolonteers for investigators?
19:47 <@dmwaters> volonteers
19:47 <@dmwaters> i'll talk to donnie
19:47 <@kingtaco|laptop> isn't grant the ombudsman?
19:47 <@dmwaters> he tends to be good at getting through the shit, and right to facts, heh
19:47 <@dmwaters> grant is
19:48 <@plasmaroo> Grant and me, yeah.
19:48 <@dmwaters> ribosome: ping.
19:49 <+ribosome> dmwaters: pong
19:49 <+ribosome> And I'm volonteering.
19:49 <@dmwaters> ok
19:49 <@dmwaters> any objections to ribosome ?
19:50 <@fmccor> The hope is nothing ever gets this far; "you really dont't wnat this procedure..."
19:50 <@dmwaters> fmccor: how i agree.
19:50 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, only that he's new to devrel
19:50 <@fmccor> Yes to ribosome
19:50 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: i agree
19:50 <@plasmaroo> For what? Investigator?
19:50 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: but as are you and kloeri_
19:50 <@kingtaco|laptop> yeah
19:51 <@plasmaroo> Considering we don't have much choice I'd say go for it.
19:51 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: yes
19:51 <@kloeri_> no objections from me
19:51 <@dmwaters> it's not about new and old here
19:51 <@kingtaco|laptop> dmwaters, it's not a strong objection
19:51 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Nod.
19:51 <+ribosome> dmwaters: I don't intend to be picky. If there is another position you'd rather have me fill, it's your call.
19:51 <@dmwaters> for  me, it's the fact that kingtaco|laptop kloeri_  and ribosome  bring something new and they are also liked.
19:51 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: The judges are filled up, we just need investigators now
19:51 <@dmwaters> same with fmccor and urilith.
19:52 <@dostrow_work> I'm for ribosome, that's fine by me
19:52 <@dmwaters> alright.
19:52 <@dmwaters> ribosome: welcome to insanity
19:52 <+ribosome> pikapika
19:52 <@plasmaroo> AKA Heaven or hell depending on how much coffee you (failed) to drink
19:52 **** dostrow_work kicks ribosome for making Pokemon noises
19:52 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
19:52 <@kloeri_> heh :)
19:53 <@dmwaters> alright, so that leaves 5 spots
19:53 <@dmwaters> anyone have suggestions?
19:53 <@plasmaroo> Insane ones maybe.
19:53 <@kingtaco|laptop> do they have to be devrel?
19:53 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Astinus_ could do with some work to do
19:53 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: maybe
19:54 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: i'd prefer they be devrel, yes
19:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: We also have eradicator and ka0ttic
19:54 <@kingtaco|laptop> and spanky
19:54 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: eradicator hasn't been active enough
19:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: And SeJo and slarti
19:54 <@kingtaco|laptop> and sejo
19:54 <@eradicator> yeah... me been bad
19:54 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, jinx!
19:54 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: and as i recall, ka0ttic didn't want to get involved unless he's changed his mind
19:54 <@plasmaroo> Whateva.
19:54 **** plasmaroo sends NULL bits
19:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Ah, I see.
19:54 <@dmwaters> sejo is good
19:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: So you have slarti, SeJo and Astinus_
19:54 <@dmwaters> eradicator: very bad:)
19:55 <@plasmaroo> All three are ok'd from me
19:55 <@dmwaters> i'll talk to the 3 of them
19:55 <@dmwaters> and i'd like to see donnie there
19:55 <@kloeri_> yeah, I'd be fine with them as well
19:55 <@plasmaroo> Mhmhmh.
19:55 <@dmwaters> if they all accept, that makes 4
19:55 <@plasmaroo> No, that makes five.
19:56 <@dostrow_work> math++
19:56 <@plasmaroo> memory++
19:56 <@dmwaters> ok, we only need 1 more:p
19:56 <@plasmaroo> insanity++
19:56 <@dmwaters> my head is pounding, heh
19:56 <@dostrow_work> plasmaroo(who contains all the above)++
19:56 <@plasmaroo> Dum dee dum... has fmccor been given a job yet?
19:56 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: judge
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> judge
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> what about seemant
19:57 <@plasmaroo> Right, so ... looks like our pool is exhausted, expect avenj
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> can he investigate?
19:57 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: He declined
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> investigator?
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> I know he declined judge
19:57 <@plasmaroo> Possibly.
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> seemant, confirm please?
19:57 **** fmccor frowns at plasmaroo
19:57 <@slarti> I'm halfway through a book at the moment, but I'd be happy doing anything
19:57 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: he'd rather stay as advisor
19:57 <@kingtaco|laptop> ok
19:57 <@dmwaters> slarti: thanks:p
19:57 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Yes, hello, welcome to my haven.
19:58 <@dmwaters> so that leaves spanky and avenj
19:58 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
19:58 <@dmwaters> and cshields
19:58 <@kingtaco|laptop> I saw vapier active on -dev about an hour ago
19:58 <@dostrow_work> I'd really like to see Mike as an investigator
19:58 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: he's a judge
19:59 <@kingtaco|laptop> which mike
19:59 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: He might mean spanky :P
19:59 <@dmwaters> you
19:59 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: Corey is more a liason then a member
19:59 <@kingtaco|laptop> there are 2 of us
19:59 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: vapier not kingtaco|laptop
19:59 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: he's been involved as a member
19:59 <@seemant> kingtaco|laptop: confirm whom ?
19:59 <@slarti> so, who gets to dress up as ally mcbeal?
19:59 <@seemant> kingtaco|laptop: I confirm you
19:59 <@plasmaroo> slarti: Who's she?
19:59 <@kingtaco|laptop> seemant, no, that you don't want to be an investigator
19:59 <@seemant> no filibuster here
19:59 <@seemant> no right, sure, uh, don't wanna be one
19:59 **** plasmaroo high-fives seemant.
20:00 <@kingtaco|laptop> we wern't sure if you declined in general, or to the judge in particular
20:00 <@slarti> plasmaroo: you know, that tv lawyer who was in futurama once
20:00 <@seemant> kingtaco|laptop: in general (at least for now)
20:00 <@kingtaco|laptop> k
20:00 <@plasmaroo> slarti: Uh... ok...
20:00 <@urilith> im a mike too, which actually makes 3
20:00 <@kingtaco|laptop> heheheh
20:00 **** dmwaters cries
20:00 <@kingtaco|laptop> mike++
20:00 <@plasmaroo> *boggle*
20:00 <@dmwaters> too many of them!
20:00 <@urilith> i had a class in high school once with 4 mikes
20:00 <@urilith> that was very confusing
20:01 <@kingtaco|laptop> I went by my last name
20:01 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Hey, just be happy there aren't evil clones with killer laser beams of me yet
20:01 <@dmwaters> we've got 2 mikes at the osl, maybe 3 soon, it's insane
20:01 <@dmwaters> anyway
20:01 <@kingtaco|laptop> so, who is our 6th investigator
20:01 <@dmwaters> since spanky isn't here
20:01 <@dmwaters> shrug
20:01 **** kingtaco|laptop sporkprods SpanKY
20:01 <@dmwaters> so we've got 1 open left
20:01 <@plasmaroo> Mhmmhm.
20:01 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, what about you?
20:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> oh wait, you can't
20:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> n/m
20:02 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: I'm automagically rejected since I'm an insane neutral monkey
20:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> yeah
20:02 <@dmwaters> i can't, plasmaroo and grant can't,jhuebel can't
20:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> and why not Astinus_ ?
20:02 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: He is.
20:02 <@dmwaters> i wrote him down
20:02 <@kingtaco|laptop> ah
20:03 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: More coffee :P
20:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> yeah
20:03 <@dmwaters> hrm, anyone have suggestions for a new devrel member?:p
20:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> actually
20:03 **** plasmaroo grabs his list.
20:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> I do, allthough I don't know if he would accept
20:03 <@plasmaroo> Stuart?
20:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> no
20:03 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: hmm, maybe
20:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> well, not the person I'm refering to
20:03 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: who
20:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> hparker
20:04 <@plasmaroo> Or hparker
20:04 <@dmwaters> how long has he been around?
20:04 **** plasmaroo checks.
20:04 <@kingtaco|laptop> he's running the AT project for both PPC and AMD64
20:04 <@kingtaco|laptop> about 6 months now
20:04 **** dostrow_work nominates Steve Irwin, we need the crocidile hunter...............
20:04 <@kloeri_> Stuart is quite busy with RL
20:04 <@plasmaroo> kloeri_: :/
20:05 <@dmwaters> i'll talk to hparker
20:05 <@fmccor> How's lparker?
20:05 <@kingtaco|laptop> hparker could also be a recruiter, he does it for ATs allready
20:05 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: He's been around for three months
20:05 <@dmwaters> hmm
20:05 <@plasmaroo> Four even.
20:06 <@dmwaters> he can't mentor yet
20:06 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
20:06 <@kingtaco|laptop> correct
20:06 <@dmwaters> hmmm
20:06 <@fmccor> OK.  I live in sparc.
20:06 <@dmwaters> he's out for now i think
20:06 <@kingtaco|laptop> k
20:07 <@kingtaco|laptop> um, who else
20:07 **** plasmaroo grabs !8ball
20:07 <@kingtaco|laptop> heh
20:07 <@plasmaroo> Hrm.
20:07 <@plasmaroo> jforman?
20:08 <@dmwaters> um...
20:08 <@dmwaters> what about chris?
20:08 <@plasmaroo> I could ask.
20:08 <@kingtaco|laptop> chris?
20:08 <@dmwaters> wolf3102
20:08 <@kingtaco|laptop> ah
20:08 <@dmwaters> i dunno if he'd want it though
20:08 <@plasmaroo> I'm asking.
20:08 <@kingtaco|laptop> I suspect he's too busy, but I don't have a problem otherwise
20:08 <@plasmaroo> He's real busy with work
20:08 <@plasmaroo> But he might be able to do. I don't know.
20:08 <@dmwaters> yeah, that's what i figured
20:09 <@fmccor> He is a good choice, thout
20:09 <@fmccor> thouth.
20:09 <@dmwaters> fmccor: having problems?:)
20:09 <@plasmaroo> taviso?
20:09 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: I'm for Chris if he is willing
20:09 <@kingtaco|laptop> Kumba?
20:09 <@plasmaroo> Yep, or Kumba.
20:09 <@dmwaters> i'd prefer chris
20:09 <@dmwaters> i don't know taviso at all
20:10 <@fmccor> Keyboard wont' cooperate.
20:10 <@kingtaco|laptop> ohhh, what about Mr_Bones_
20:10 <@plasmaroo> :P
20:10 <@dmwaters> hmmm
20:10 <@kloeri_> taviso would be good imo
20:11 <@plasmaroo> Chris can help.
20:12 <@dmwaters> yay
20:12 <@dostrow_work> woohoo
20:12 <@dmwaters> can we get him in here?
20:12 <@plasmaroo> Yes.
20:12 <@plasmaroo> He'll be coming.
20:12 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o ribosome by dmwaters
20:12 <@kingtaco|laptop> :)
20:13 <@dmwaters> ok, i need to find some advil real quick, brb
20:13 :::: wolf31o2-work!~wolf31o2@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
20:13 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +v wolf31o2-work by plasmaroo
20:13 <@plasmaroo> Heya.
20:13 <@fmccor> speak of the devil...
20:13 <+wolf31o2-work> eh?
20:13 <@plasmaroo> Eh?
20:14 <@dmwaters> hi chris
20:14 <+wolf31o2-work> hello everyone
20:14 <@dmwaters> wolf31o2-work: how much has plasmaroo told you?
20:14 <+wolf31o2-work> not a thing
20:14 <@plasmaroo> The boring stuff is here: http://dev.gentoo.org/~fmccor/devrel/dispute-resolution,policy-and-procedure.txt
20:14 <@plasmaroo> Scroll down, read a. Investigation
20:14 <+wolf31o2-work> he just asked if I was willing to help on looking into something
20:14 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
20:14 <@dmwaters> oh boy
20:14 <@plasmaroo> No, I said investigatory panel :P
20:14 <@dmwaters> wolf31o2-work: /msg then
20:15 **** plasmaroo sighs.
20:15 <+wolf31o2-work> right... panel... exuse me...
20:15 **** plasmaroo was just about to go more insane there... awww....
20:15 :::: tove!~tove@... has quit: Client Quit
20:16 <@dmwaters> ok
20:16 <@spyderous> dmwaters: not really ombudsman, no. try grant and plas.
20:16 <@spyderous> dmwaters: btw, i can't be on either because of the whole manager thing
20:16 <@dmwaters> spyderous: nods, was making sure before i tried to volonteer you for something:)
20:17 <@spyderous> that'll likely be a moot point in a month or two, because of the new structure
20:17 <@dmwaters> spyderous: that doesn't really matter because of the new structure
20:17 <@dmwaters> spyderous: by the time we get organized, the new structure will be in place
20:17 <@dmwaters> spyderous: which is why i was volonteering you:)
20:17 <@dmwaters> ok
20:17 <+wolf31o2-work> so... heh... I'm out... thanks guys
20:17 <@dmwaters> so wolf31o2-work says no
20:18 :::: wolf31o2-work!~wolf31o2@... has left #gentoo-devrel: "Leaving"
20:18 <@dmwaters> so
20:18 <@plasmaroo> Ok... so `Kumba?
20:18 <@dmwaters> we're back to victims:)
20:18 <@dmwaters> maybe
20:18 <@dmwaters> what do you know about taviso?
20:18 <@plasmaroo> He's around, generally level-minded.
20:19 <@plasmaroo> I think he'd be good for the job, as would `Kumba
20:19 <@kloeri_> taviso has been around for quite a while and should know gentoo quite well
20:19 <@kloeri_> same goes for kumba
20:19 <@plasmaroo> Aye.
20:19 **** plasmaroo ack's.
20:19 <@dmwaters> i'm steering away from kumba a bit because he's a trustee
20:19 <@plasmaroo> Ok, I'll speak to taviso.
20:20 <@fmccor> Absolutely for 'Kumba
20:20 <@dmwaters> we can choose him if taviso says no
20:20 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: make sure you give him all the details:p
20:20 <@dmwaters> poor chris:)
20:20 <@kloeri_> :)
20:20 <@plasmaroo> :P
20:23 :::: r2d2!~r2d2@... has quit: Client Quit
20:23 <@dmwaters> ok
20:23 <@dmwaters> so
20:23 <@dmwaters> spyderous: do you object to being volonteered?:)
20:24 :::: r2d2!~r2d2@g.o has joined #gentoo-devrel
20:24 :::: taviso!~taviso@g.o has joined #gentoo-devrel
20:24 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +v taviso by plasmaroo
20:25 <@dmwaters> taviso: hi
20:25 <@plasmaroo> Heya.
20:25 <+taviso> hey :)
20:25 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: how much have you told him?:p
20:25 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Investigatory panel, but he needs an estimate of the workload
20:25 <@spyderous> dmwaters: what am i being volunteered for?
20:25 <@dmwaters> spyderous: investigation person
20:26 <@dmwaters> spyderous: you're good at digging through the crap:)
20:26 :::: vapier!UserBah@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
20:26 <@dmwaters> taviso: this automatically puts you in devrel
20:26 <@dmwaters> taviso: you should know this first
20:26 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o vapier by dmwaters
20:26 <+taviso> dmwaters: that's fine, i dont mind helping out
20:26 <@dmwaters> taviso: as for work load, probably not much at all
20:27 <@plasmaroo> taviso: Great :)
20:27 <@dmwaters> taviso: big thing is if you've got feedback, give it, normally, things don't make it to the investigations stage, accept for now and then, but it's rare
20:28 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: did you give him the url for the proposal?
20:28 <@plasmaroo> No, it's here:
20:28 <@plasmaroo> http://dev.gentoo.org/~fmccor/devrel/dispute-resolution,policy-and-procedure.txt
20:28 <@plasmaroo> See section 2.II.a
20:28 <+taviso> what kind of work would be involved, just checking out complaints and so on?
20:28 <@plasmaroo> taviso: More or less.
20:28 <@dmwaters> taviso: yes
20:28 <@plasmaroo> taviso: Speaking to people, basically.
20:29 <+taviso> okay, i can handle talking :)
20:29 <@plasmaroo> :)
20:29 <@dmwaters> taviso: you "have" to document things though
20:29 <+taviso> sure
20:29 <@plasmaroo> Yeah, that goes for all you other investigatory people ^^^^'
20:29 <@dmwaters> taviso: not enough documentation tends to  have people break out the flamethrowers
20:31 :::: jhuebel!~jhuebel@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
20:31 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o jhuebel by ChanServ
20:31 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: meeting is almost over:p
20:31 <@fmccor> taviso, The point is to keep things from getting out of hand --- at least, in mu mind.
20:32 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: Sorry, I've been running the roads today. :-/
20:32 <@dmwaters> ok
20:32 <@dmwaters> to recap...
20:32 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o taviso by dmwaters
20:32 :::: KingTaco!~mike@... has quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
20:33 <@plasmaroo> taviso: Welcome to the insanity :)
20:33 <@kingtaco|laptop> heh, damn wifi link...
20:33 <@dmwaters> so
20:33 <@dmwaters> for judges
20:33 <@dmwaters> we have
20:33 <@dmwaters> fmccor
20:33 <@dmwaters> urilith
20:33 <@dmwaters> kloeri
20:33 <@taviso> hehe
20:33 <@dmwaters> dostrow
20:33 <@dmwaters> kingtaco
20:33 <@dmwaters>
20:33 <@plasmaroo> That makes five, cool
20:33 <@dmwaters> for investigation people
20:33 <@dmwaters> we have
20:33 <@dmwaters> spyderous
20:33 <@dmwaters> ribosome
20:33 <@dmwaters> slarti
20:33 <@dmwaters> sejo
20:33 <@dmwaters> astinus
20:33 <@dmwaters> taviso
20:33 <@dmwaters>
20:33 <@dmwaters> assuming that donnie and sejo accept
20:33 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
20:34 <@dmwaters> ok
20:34 <@dmwaters> and, we managed to drag 2 new people into the insanity
20:34 <@plasmaroo> Right.
20:34 <@dmwaters> does anyone have anything else for this meeting
20:34 <@plasmaroo> I'm going to work on getting that doc XMLlized
20:34 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes.
20:34 <@fmccor> Sounds good.
20:34 <@spyderous> i really can't afford much time, but if it's low, i can handle it.
20:34 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Where should evidence, meeting logs go? I'd be happy to organize all the stuff that's sent to me.
20:34 <@dmwaters> spyderous: you already do stuff like that basically:)
20:35 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: And act as a neutral party record-keeper sorta thing
20:35 :::: KingTaco!~mike@... has joined #gentoo-devrel
20:35 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o KingTaco by ChanServ
20:35 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: it should go on the bugs.
20:35 <@spyderous> dmwaters: i leave the investigating to other people, i just dig the decent stuff out of what they find
20:35 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I see, so that means each complaint needs an open bug?
20:35 <@dmwaters> spyderous:  :)
20:35 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: yes
20:35 <@plasmaroo> urilith: ^^ Can you word that in please
20:35 <@kingtaco|laptop> urilith, I don't remember seeing this in your proposal, but how long do judges/investigators serve for?
20:35 <@urilith> that wasnt part of the proposal
20:36 <@kingtaco|laptop> ok
20:36 <@urilith> thats up for discussion
20:36 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: We'll cycle investigators in truples each time
20:36 <@plasmaroo> Other than that, open for discussion
20:36 <@kingtaco|laptop> plasmaroo, I was more concerned about judges
20:36 <@dmwaters> kingtaco|laptop: for now, they're perminant, but it can be changed later, remember we only get one of these things maybe once or twice a year
20:36 <@kingtaco|laptop> right
20:36 <@plasmaroo> kingtaco|laptop: That's open for discussion.
20:37 <@plasmaroo> Anything else have anything to say before we end this meeting?
20:37 <@kingtaco|laptop> not I
20:37 <@plasmaroo> Guess not then.
20:37 <@kingtaco|laptop> rofl
20:37 <@fmccor> No.
20:37 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: -m by plasmaroo
20:37 <@plasmaroo> Thank you all.
20:37 <@plasmaroo> Logs will be posted to gentoo-devrel shortly.
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