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To: gentoo-doc@g.o
From: Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@g.o>
Subject: Re: Stage1/2 deprecation from Gentoo Handbook
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:24:36 -0500
On Sun, 2005-11-06 at 10:52 +0100, Xavier Neys wrote:
> He wouldn't, that's the whole point.
> It needs to be done becomes it is becoming a pita to manage. Sometimes, it 
> works, it has for me. More and more users are having problems because they 
> either try at the wrong moment or set USE flags that cause problems.

Correct.  As more and more USE flags are added, especially to packages
in "system", it has become increasingly complex to ensure that the
bootstrapping process even works.  I have been getting an increasing
number of bugs where we're experiencing problems like "emerge -e world"
failing because of an unconfigured kernel.

> > Actually, I don't understand the request at all, since it makes no sense
> > (atleast from this email :p).
> Try b.g.o or -releng (dunno if the list is archived)

I'm not sure if it is archived, either.  At any rate, the bug lists the
reasons pretty well.

> > I installed Gentoo from Stage 1, following the handbook. I had *no*
> > issues. I'm sorry, but removing portions of the handbook just because
> > there are users who won't read (I know, I had a friend who goofed up 4
> > Gentoo installs because he was lazy to read the handbook) is *not* a
> > reason to remove perfectly correct and easy to understand documentation.
> It also fails for users who do follow the doc to the t.


> > As it surprises me. In case this does happen, What do they(we) plan to
> > do for newbies wanting to do a Stage 1/2 install?
> They don't. Newbies and seasoned users should do stage3 installs.

Again, correct.

The real root of this problem is the misconception in our user base that
a stage1 install actually benefits the user in any way.  It does not.

> > BTW, it so happened that I met Andrew Cowie (Operational Dynamics,
> > Sydney) the other day here and we were discussing Gentoo. He felt that a
> > strong point that Gentoo has and others don't is that you get to
> > actually see the things as they happen. You actually see bootstrapping.
> > And that is a valid point. Removing references from the handbook takes
> > the oppurtunity away of learning all that the first time you install
> > Gentoo.
> > 
> > Anyone from releng here who can clarify why they need this done? TIA
> Using a stage1 simply has no benefit, it does not teach you anything.
> All that typing and emerge -e system does is enlarge the size of 
> your ePenis. It also wastes your time because stage3 is faster, even if you 
> change the CFLAGS/USE flags and recompile it all.

Heh... you just have to love when someone quotes you and uses
"ePenis"... ;]

> Besides, it makes the handbook shorter, easier to read and easier to maintain.
> As long as stage1 is released, the doc will be maintained in the FAQ but there 
> is no reason to burden the handbook and our users with this.

This is pretty much my agreement.  I see no reason for having the stage1
documentation in the Handbook.  It is confusing to our users and causes
way more trouble than it is worth.

Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
signature.asc (This is a digitally signed message part)
Stage1/2 deprecation from Gentoo Handbook
-- Sven Vermeulen
Re: Stage1/2 deprecation from Gentoo Handbook
-- Shyam Mani
Re: Stage1/2 deprecation from Gentoo Handbook
-- Xavier Neys
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