1 |
Scott Hadfield wrote: |
2 |
> I know it's a bit late for this discussion, but I never really |
3 |
> understood why GLIS wasn't a viable installer project for gentoo. |
4 |
|
5 |
Short answer is that it doesn't cover all the features users want. |
6 |
(Remember we're talking about users, not just ourselves, etc.) |
7 |
|
8 |
> It |
9 |
> even seems to me that an initial goal of GLI is to get to the point |
10 |
> where GLIS is at right now, i.e. working, based on a configuration file, |
11 |
> and highly flexible. |
12 |
|
13 |
It's coincidence. The reason it's being rebuilt is because the |
14 |
architecture had to change to accommodate the required features. |
15 |
|
16 |
> GLIS is written in bash and made up of about 8 |
17 |
> small bash scripts (except for the partition code, which is way too big |
18 |
> for bash), and in my opinion this is really all you need for a gentoo |
19 |
> installer since all it takes to install gentoo is a few bash commands. |
20 |
|
21 |
And while it's good that something such as that works for you, there's |
22 |
somewhere around 250,000 - 500,000 gentoo users out there (last I heard) |
23 |
that this doesn't work for. If it did, they wouldn't be asking for |
24 |
something else. |
25 |
|
26 |
> GLIS simply takes those commands and puts them into scripts. |
27 |
> |
28 |
> I don't think GLIS is the do-all/end-all of installer projects, but I do |
29 |
> think it's a good project and that it does the job quite well. |
30 |
|
31 |
It is, and it does which is why the GLIS developer (Nathanial McCullam) |
32 |
is now a gentoo developer and working on the GLI. |
33 |
|
34 |
> I've even |
35 |
> written a small gentoo kickstart howto with glis (needs updating) that's |
36 |
> posted on the forums. |
37 |
|
38 |
Very cool. |
39 |
|
40 |
> I've followed this installer project from its beginning in January, |
41 |
|
42 |
This may come off wrong, but if you've been following it since its |
43 |
beginning, the differences in goals between GLIS and the GLI should be |
44 |
clear, as should the need for the GLI. |
45 |
|
46 |
> but |
47 |
> it seems like most of core developer's don't have as much spare time to |
48 |
> devote to the project as they may have initially thought. |
49 |
|
50 |
Not entirely true... just because cvs activity isn't streaming, doesn't |
51 |
mean it's not being worked on. |
52 |
|
53 |
> If you adopted |
54 |
> GLIS as gentoo's installer right now then at least gentoo would have |
55 |
> something, and in 6-12 months when GLI is done you could switch over it. |
56 |
|
57 |
Unfortunately, that would cause even further upset. See, if you |
58 |
introduce something new, get them to learn it, and then replace it with |
59 |
something with a very different feature set and design, well, you'll |
60 |
piss people off. The user group will then segment even further ("I like |
61 |
the original method", "I like GLIS", "I like the GLI", and "I'm |
62 |
confused") which will, obviously, do more bad than good. Plainly put, as |
63 |
cool as GLIS is, it does not have the features required by a general |
64 |
audience and therefore couldn't be adapted en mass. |
65 |
|
66 |
> The one large development benefit I see from this is that people can |
67 |
> immediately start working on a GUI for the installer, and as long as the |
68 |
> GUI's interaction with the backend is well enough seperated from its UI, |
69 |
> there would be little difficulty in porting the code to work with GLI. |
70 |
|
71 |
It's a bit more complicated than that. There's more to application |
72 |
design than drawing two boxes on a white board and labeling one |
73 |
"Backend" and one "GUI" no matter what people say. |
74 |
|
75 |
> Of course having two different installer's at the same time would mean |
76 |
> more to manage, but the number of bugs that get reported on GLIS have |
77 |
> been very minimal in the past few months and I could easily maintain it |
78 |
> myself. |
79 |
|
80 |
Again, all due respect to Nate - GLIS is very cool, but there have |
81 |
probably been few bugs in GLIS because it doesn't meet the needs of the |
82 |
majority of users. |
83 |
|
84 |
To be clear, we're trying to meet the needs of a wider audience. This is |
85 |
not about "Gentoo is for l33t h@x0rz" or "tell the n00bz to RTFM" or |
86 |
"GUI installers suck" or "well, *I* won't use it." Gentoo's user base is |
87 |
growing as are their needs and to continue this way, we have to meet new |
88 |
needs. |
89 |
|
90 |
As a (rather contrived) for-instance... |
91 |
|
92 |
We build an installer like GLI with multiple front ends, auto-deployment |
93 |
for large networks, reusable installation classes and frameworks. More |
94 |
users take notice in Gentoo and our user base grows because we appeal to |
95 |
more people. As these users graduate from universities or get higher |
96 |
positions in jobs, they will take their fondness of Gentoo with them. |
97 |
They'll want to use Gentoo in the workplace (this is already happening). |
98 |
Their workplace uses Oracle, but Oracle doesn't support Gentoo. Bummer. |
99 |
(If you jump in and say, "well, use MySQL/PostgreSQL," you've missed the |
100 |
point.) After time and as this trend continues, Oracle sees a new |
101 |
platform they *have* to support due to growth and popularity. Gentoo |
102 |
becomes an Oracle certified platform and is now supported. Those people |
103 |
who like Gentoo can now use it in the workplace. More users come to |
104 |
Gentoo. Users turn into devs. Gentoo gets more features, bug fixes, |
105 |
ebuilds, whatever. The world is a better place. Gentoo is a better |
106 |
distro. Linux gains more acceptance. |
107 |
|
108 |
This, of course, is not all resting solely on the shoulders of something |
109 |
like GLI - I do not live with such delusions of grandeur. But, the open |
110 |
source world's ability to grow and become more accessible to new |
111 |
industries is being watched and tallied. |
112 |
|
113 |
If the word Oracle bugs you, s/Oracle/Company X/g. If you don't care if |
114 |
Gentoo gains popularity and just want a neat desktop, that's ok too, but |
115 |
after the week I've had cursing at Solaris... |
116 |
|
117 |
(Sorry for the diatribe, but I'm feeling technologically philosophical |
118 |
this evening.) |
119 |
-- |
120 |
Eric Sammer |
121 |
Gentoo Linux |
122 |
http://www.gentoo.org |