Gentoo Archives: gentoo-java

From: Karl Trygve Kalleberg <karltk@g.o>
To: "Peter B. West" <lists@××××××.au>
Cc: gentoo-java@l.g.o
Subject: Java 1.5 - the Real Story [was: Re: [gentoo-java] Question about Sun-Jdk 1.4.2.10]
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:57:02
Message-Id: 43974C93.3070001@gentoo.org
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-java] Question about Sun-Jdk 1.4.2.10 by "Peter B. West"
1 Peter B. West wrote:
2
3
4 I had hoped this discussion died down by itself, since it has no merit
5 whatsoever. I guess for confuzzled readers, it's time I made something
6 of an "official" statement on the 1.5 issue on behalf of the Java team.
7
8
9 > I think you're missing my point. Java 5 works, and is, for practical
10 > purposes, forward compatible with 1,4, with the exception of 'enum'. If
11 > that is so, why not a flag 'java5', that triggers source source 1.4 on
12 > packages that need it? The system JVM is 5, and Bob's your uncle.
13 > What's the system-level stability issue?
14
15 This issue has been adressed multiple times before, so I won't go into
16 why Java 1.5 is not a drop-in replacement to for 1.4 in the Gentoo
17 package system.
18
19 > This is not a technical issue, it's an ideological issue, as I said
20 > before.
21
22 It may be an ideological issue to you, but you are not on the Gentoo
23 Java developer team. I am. I can speak for the Java developer team, and
24 state once and for all that the only reason why Java 1.5 is not
25 unmasked, is because of technical issues that we are still working on.
26
27
28 > This is, in fact, quite explicit in the Gentoo documentation. I
29 > suggest that subscribers to the "conspiracy-theory-theory" (I never used
30 > the word) read the "Gentoo social contract"
31 > <http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml>, including the definition
32 > of "free software" <http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html>.
33 >
34 > I suggest, further, that the Gentoo folks in this forum come clean about
35 > this when asked in good faith about using Java 5 on Gentoo. The answer
36 > is along these lines: Java 5 will not be supported on Gentoo until a 1.5
37 > JVM is available under a Stallman-approved licence.
38
39 Again, as the lead of the Java team, I'll simply state that this is
40 untrue. I should think that we, the developers, have a good idea of our
41 reasons for not putting it in yet. If you hear reasons not coming from
42 us that differ from our stated opinions, it is safe to assume they are
43 invalid.
44
45 > The genuine options for J5 users are to scrap the Gentoo Java support and
46 > maintain your own Java environment, or to abandon Gentoo.
47
48 This is known as a "false dichotomy", and is usually used as a bogus
49 rhetorical trick to incite flamewars. In reality, there are many more
50 choices:
51
52 (3) Use the Axxo overlay
53 (4) Use the Java 1.5 JRE, but not the JDK
54 (5) Help us solve the remaining technical issues
55
56 I have a hard time seeing how you could have missed these three.
57
58 > I see that there is yet another enquiry on the list about using J5. Do
59 > that user a favour and tell him why he can't get a supported J5
60 > environment on Gentoo, so that he can then make informed decisions. If
61 > you guys are embarrassed by the Gentoo ideology, change it or leave. If
62 > not, present it honestly, instead of spouting this deliberately
63 > misleading BS about system stability issues. It's leaving users with
64 > the impression that J5 is unstable, which it patently is not.
65
66
67 This is a comment worthy of debian-legal;P
68
69 Seriously, though, I'd like to reiterate: The problem comes down to
70 manpower, not ideology.
71
72 Instead of spending your and my time on writing mails on this topic,
73 please help us solve the technical issues. The Gentoo community, as any
74 other open-source community, is dependent on help, input and
75 constructive criticism from our users.
76
77
78 Cheers,
79
80 -- Karl T
81 --
82 gentoo-java@g.o mailing list

Replies

Subject Author
Re: Java 1.5 - the Real Story [was: Re: [gentoo-java] Question about Sun-Jdk 1.4.2.10] John Manko <jmanko@×××××××××.com>