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2008/9/14 Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@×××××.com>: |
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> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Andrew John Hughes |
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> <gnu_andrew@××××××××××.org> wrote: |
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>> 2008/9/14 Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@×××××.com>: |
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>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 2:21 AM, Andrew John Hughes |
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>>> <gnu_andrew@××××××××××.org> wrote: |
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>>>> 2008/9/13 Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@×××××.com>: |
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>>> |
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>>> <snip> |
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>>> |
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>>>>> AIUI and IMNSHO *NO* local build from source qualifies. gentoo |
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>>>>> *SHOULD* *NOT* expose users to risk by using trademarks etc for *ANY* |
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>>>>> source build even from the sun tree. |
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>>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> Maybe that's being a bit over cautious, |
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>>> |
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>>> i agree that sun is unlikely to sue any users over java ATM but |
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>>> trademarks must be defended or cease to exist. sooner or later sun |
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>>> will have to either lose the java trademark or act against |
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>>> unauthorised users. |
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>>> |
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>> |
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>> I wasn't talking about the Java trademark, I was talking about the OpenJDK |
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>> trademark. Use of the Java trademark requires passing the |
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>> certification process, |
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>> and this isn't possible for a source build. Only binaries can pass |
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>> the TCK and thus |
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>> be certified. |
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> |
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> yes |
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> |
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> thanks for clarifying |
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> |
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>>>> but the problem generally is |
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>>>> Sun thought of this with binary distribution in mind, not source. |
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>>> |
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>>> the JCP is set up to manage binaries, not source. IMO this is the |
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>>> fatal flaw in this system. (i'll avoid going OT by repeating the |
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>>> argument again here.) |
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>>> |
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>> |
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>> Yes, the JCP still needs work, being centered around proprietary |
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>> binary distribution for the most part. |
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> |
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> the binary distributions only rule is a consequence of the closed TCK. |
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> the TCK is closed to ensure a revenue stream for the spec leader. |
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> |
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> i'll be interested to see whether the JCP survives. sun broke the |
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> basic premise over the harmony TCK (all participants whether open |
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> source or not hold contracts with sun who acts as an independent |
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> judge). given that most open source projects can't afford to sue sun, |
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> the legal framework needs extensive revision. it would be cleaner for |
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> the JCP to issue a license covering any works that pass an open source |
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> TCK for everything except branding rights including the mutual patent |
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> grants. branding rights are only really required for commercial binary |
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> implementations so an additional secret TCK and payment could be |
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> required to unlock those. |
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> |
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>>>> As with any legal agreement, the best solution is to consult a lawyer. |
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>>>> I'm not one. |
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>>> |
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>>> does gentoo have a agreement with sun? |
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>>> if so, is it available on line? |
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>>> if not, what agreement is being relyed on? |
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>>> |
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>> |
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>> Not as far as I know, but other than naming and trademarks, OpenJDK is just |
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>> like any other FOSS project. |
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> |
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> trademarks are the important point (bit like firefox) |
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> |
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>>>>> BTW i'm on AMD64 which has very poor support from the sun java |
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>>>>> codebase. are there any plans to add support for the harmony VM? |
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>>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> What 'poor support'? IcedTea6 works fine for me here on amd64. |
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>>> |
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>>> eclipse and sun don't play well. however, i haven't tried switching to |
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>>> the iced tea build on gentoo so maybe i'll give that a try next time. |
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>>> |
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>>>> Feel free to package Harmony, but I don't see how that will solve your problems, |
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>>> |
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>>> harmony runs eclipse fine. every couple of months when gentoo changes |
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>>> something, i have to devote a couple of hours fixing stuff so that |
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>>> eclipse works or else switch to harmony until everything's fixed. |
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>>> |
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>> |
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>> That's interesting. I don't know anything about the proprietary Sun |
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>> builds on amd64, I've |
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>> never used them. But I also don't run Eclipse. Have you filled |
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>> appropriate bugs? Certainly try IcedTea and, if you get failures, report them to our bug |
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>> database at |
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>> http://icedtea.classpath.org/bugzilla. |
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> |
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> cool |
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> |
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>>>> given it doesn't yet have a complete implementation of even 1.5. |
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>>> |
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>>> if sun had honoured it's agreement to allow access to the TCK by open |
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>>> source projects, then harmony (and the free JVMs) would have had |
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>>> certified 1.5 implementations a year ago and (most likely) 1.6 ones as |
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>>> well by now. this is a political issue, not a code one. |
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>>> |
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>> |
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>> I seriously doubt that, given it took OpenJDK a year to pass the 1.6 |
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>> TCK, despite |
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>> being based on a codebase, the majority of which has passed as part of |
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>> the proprietary work. |
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> |
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> you'd be surprised :-) |
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> |
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> at least one major corporation has taken a derived work based on |
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> harmony codebase through the TCK |
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> |
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|
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Is this the TreeMap? If so, it's one class which they modified heavily |
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themselves |
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so that it worked as part of 1.6. |
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|
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> and ask yourself if google would have based andriod on harmony unless |
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> it worked... |
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> |
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|
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I didn't say it didn't work, I said it wasnt' likely to pass the TCK |
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without a lot of work. |
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You could of course link the Harmony class library up to HotSpot, |
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apply for the OpenJDK6 TCK |
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to certify that combination and prove me wrong. |
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> - robert |
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> |
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> |
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-- |
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Andrew :-) |
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|
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Support Free Java! |
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Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK |
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http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath |
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http://openjdk.java.net |
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