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To: "'gentoo-nfp'" <gentoo-nfp@g.o>
From: "Chrissy Fullam" <musikc@g.o>
Subject: RE: Gentoo Foundation Inc Trustees - Adjourned August Meeting
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:07:54 -0700
> > I was of the impression that tsunam was to remain acting treasurer, is
> > that deprecated?
> 
> A the upcoming meeting I will be putting a motion on the floor calling for
> a vote of no confidence.

See below for details but I hope that all involved will reconsider the
notion, there seems no solid ground for such a vote.

> > We do need both, but I do think that tsunam will be more than able to
> > handle these things, given the level of commitment he has already
> > demonstrated over the years.
> 
> But presently he is MIA.
> He has the lowest meeting attendance. 

Not sure how this is accurate. Reference:
http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/minutes/index.xml
The meeting logs only list from March to May but tsunam is present in each
meeting.

> Not fulfilling a single treasurer duty. Short of arranging a few minor
> payments.
> I have watched Joshua not do anything for months
> I have 0 tolerance for inaction. More so when I am bearing the weight of
> that inaction. Had Joshua done the bank leg work, I would feel different.
> But I did all the hard work. All that is needed now is ~30 minutes if
> that. Which he clearly does not have.

This does not seem accurate. Wltjr offered to help tsunam with tasks and
when he complained about doing it tsunam said he'd take back the work then
wltjr made light of the work remaining, essentially declining the offer. All
in the lengthy attached file though excerpts are below:


Jul 13 12:05:28 <NeddySeagoon>	Gentoo Foundation Banking - tsunam ... your
turn
Jul 13 12:05:43 *	wltjr is doing yard work will be in and out
Jul 13 12:05:47 <tsunam>	Well as we've been discussing about the
banking. There's a few options
Jul 13 12:06:09 <tsunam>	one of which is related to where our outside
of the NM address is
<followed by discussion of banking options>
...
Jul 13 12:34:39 <NeddySeagoon>	217511 The Gentoo Store is Out of Date we
still need to fix our own store
Jul 13 12:35:07 <NeddySeagoon>	The licencing agreement won't do that
Jul 13 12:35:34 <fmccor>	No, it just lets other people sell
Gentoo-branded things.
Jul 13 12:36:44 <NeddySeagoon>	There are 3 options ... close the strore,
run it ourselves or appoint some officers (a store project) to do it.
Thoughts ?
Jul 13 12:37:07 *	musikc coughs and mutters something about have PR
assist
...
Jul 13 12:39:05 <tsunam>	wouldn't need to be a developer, could just
be staff and someone recruited for running said store
Jul 13 12:39:16 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, exactly
...
Jul 13 12:44:47 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, Its your solo now ... Treasurers
Report for FY ending 30 June 2008
Jul 13 12:45:52 <tsunam>	We spent next to no money and have over 80
people donate to Gentoo this year. WE NEED to set a budget for spending
money. At least one new server a year for infra as they are still using p3's
as core infra boxes
Jul 13 12:46:08 <tsunam>	as you're aware some of them are really
showing age, such as the forums frontend box 
Jul 13 12:46:28 <tsunam>	Taking in money without really spending any
is not a benefit to anyone
...
Jul 13 14:05:13 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I am not, and I am less happy wrt to
Gentoo overall now
Jul 13 14:05:33 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Take a break from the Foundation
stuff
...
Jul 13 14:06:05 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, can you pick up the banking stuff ?
Jul 13 14:06:28 <fmccor>	NeddySeagoon, No; I'm not qualified for
that.  
Jul 13 14:06:35 <tsunam>	hand it back to me
Jul 13 14:06:45 <tsunam>	I'll figure a way to make time
...
Jul 13 14:10:30 <fmccor>	wltjr, Can you send the forms I sent you to
Joshua, or should I send him copies directly?
Jul 13 14:10:43 <wltjr>	fmccor: I can send, but you all are getting ahead of
yourself
...
Jul 13 14:10:58 <wltjr>	we need to answers to questions to find out if we
can even proceed with Wells Fargo
...
Jul 13 14:11:20 <tsunam>	wltjr: just let me know where you got and
I'll follow up
...
Jul 13 14:11:54 <wltjr>	tsunam: I can call them at least and get answers,
which I assume will take ~30 minutes, since they will have to ask a
supervisor and are not common/normal questions
 
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jul 13 12:03:53 2008

Jul 13 12:03:53 *	Now talking on #gentoo-trustees
Jul 13 12:03:53 *	Topic for #gentoo-trustees is:  Join our public mailing list gentoo-nfp at lists dot gentoo dot org | Next regular meeting, here, Sunday 13 July 1900 UTC - Agenda http://xrl.us/kj7em | Logs/Minutes of past meetings http://tinyurl.com/2qcb4o | Latest bylaws draft http://xrl.us/iqzyg just Article V to do
Jul 13 12:03:53 *	Topic for #gentoo-trustees set by NeddySeagoon at Sun Jul 06 10:04:54 2008
Jul 13 12:04:08 <NeddySeagoon>	Can we set a meeting for section 5 next Sunday, if its not resolved in email by then ?
Jul 13 12:04:36 <fmccor>	Yes, but resolution by email sounds like a winner if we can.
Jul 13 12:05:07 <NeddySeagoon>	Its not contentious, I'll post my thoughts in the next day or so
Jul 13 12:05:28 <NeddySeagoon>	Gentoo Foundation Banking - tsunam ... your turn
Jul 13 12:05:43 *	wltjr is doing yard work will be in and out
Jul 13 12:05:47 <tsunam>	Well as we've been discussing about the banking. There's a few options
Jul 13 12:05:58 *	mpagano (n=mpagano@gentoo/developer/mpagano) has joined #gentoo-trustees
Jul 13 12:06:09 <tsunam>	one of which is related to where our outside of the NM address is
Jul 13 12:06:10 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, a public statement for the record would be good
Jul 13 12:06:12 <tsunam>	and the banks there
Jul 13 12:06:20 <tsunam>	or a bank in NM.
Jul 13 12:06:32 <tsunam>	problem is that most require you to be in person to sign paperwork
Jul 13 12:06:45 <tsunam>	Which all seems silly to me as i've opened quite a few accounts online only...
Jul 13 12:07:00 <NeddySeagoon>	personal <> company
Jul 13 12:07:04 <tsunam>	which brought up a discussion about moving the foundation for making it easier to deal with
Jul 13 12:07:07 *	fmccor thought we were on track with Wells Fargo?
Jul 13 12:07:25 <tsunam>	that seems the most likely place as it has a wide range of offices
Jul 13 12:07:44 <tsunam>	 that quite a few of us could go to a local office and sign the paperwork
Jul 13 12:08:13 <NeddySeagoon>	brb
Jul 13 12:08:19 <tsunam>	I also made a minor update to the bank nfp documentation but realized the work I did on the quarterly reports was wrong so I'm having to redo them ~_~
Jul 13 12:08:59 <fmccor>	I thought wltjr had it set up to do Wells Fargo by fax --- I sent him some paperwork based on that.
Jul 13 12:09:30 <tsunam>	that'd be up to the man doing yardwork if that's the case
Jul 13 12:09:47 <tsunam>	once its established can have grant send the check to them for deposit...
Jul 13 12:09:51 <tsunam>	assuming its still good
Jul 13 12:10:55 <fmccor>	He needs to shut off his lawn mower, or whatever, and let us know. :)
Jul 13 12:11:25 <NeddySeagoon>	back
Jul 13 12:11:33 <fmccor>	I know we discussed it last Wednesday; you and Tom and William and I.
Jul 13 12:11:33 <tsunam>	so that's the current state
Jul 13 12:11:53 <tsunam>	fmccor: i was only partially here as I discussed then due to working at work :-P
Jul 13 12:11:55 <fmccor>	And Roy, too.
Jul 13 12:12:45 <NeddySeagoon>	I have a copy of my DL for wltjr to collect but its designed to be copy proof, so its not a good copy 
Jul 13 12:13:20 <fmccor>	I thought wltjr was collecting drivers licenses and consent forms, so I sent all that to him.  He should have received it yesterday (or perhaps tomorrow).
Jul 13 12:14:18 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, me too - whats a consent form, I don't recall seeing that
Jul 13 12:14:29 <fmccor>	Mine copied fine; I noticed it was a pretty good photograph, too, so I'll try to scan it for a "mug shot"
Jul 13 12:15:02 <NeddySeagoon>	My UK one does not have a photo
Jul 13 12:15:18 <NeddySeagoon>	Next
Jul 13 12:15:22 <NeddySeagoon>	Trustees and Foundation Article For the GMN - NeddySeagoon
Jul 13 12:15:31 <fmccor>	There were a couple emails from the bank to all of us; one of them had a pdf form attached.  I don't know if William needs those or not, so I just signed it a bunch of places and sent it on.
Jul 13 12:15:32 <NeddySeagoon>	I posted my section
Jul 13 12:15:58 <NeddySeagoon>	I missed that PDF but I still have the emails
Jul 13 12:16:15 <fmccor>	I planned to do mine, but got distracted by some on-going drama.
Jul 13 12:16:40 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, ^^
Jul 13 12:16:56 <fmccor>	NeddySeagoon, We need the form from Tom (as secretary) and one other officer.  I don't know if he needs any others or not.
Jul 13 12:16:56 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, & tgall_foo 
Jul 13 12:17:18 <tsunam>	NeddySeagoon: the form or the article?
Jul 13 12:17:36 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, both I suppose :)  sorry for the mixup
Jul 13 12:17:40 <fmccor>	I'll do my part of the article tomorrow if things otherwise stay calm.
Jul 13 12:17:42 <tsunam>	lol
Jul 13 12:17:57 <fmccor>	Bah.
Jul 13 12:18:25 <tsunam>	I need to review the emails myself
Jul 13 12:19:06 <fmccor>	tgall_foo 's laptop seems not to be starting. :)
Jul 13 12:19:11 <NeddySeagoon>	I'm proposing that I'm not a signatory to cheques ... it would be too complicated
Jul 13 12:19:29 <tsunam>	NeddySeagoon: *nods*
Jul 13 12:19:44 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, maybe he ran over it with the lawnmower
Jul 13 12:19:58 <fmccor>	I filled out the box, but I don't need to be a signatory.
Jul 13 12:20:12 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, what about the GMN special ?
Jul 13 12:20:45 <tsunam>	NeddySeagoon: the sample you posted. I have no issued doing one for myself
Jul 13 12:20:53 <NeddySeagoon>	thanks
Jul 13 12:21:17 <NeddySeagoon>	The hard bit is working oout what we agree on for a going forward joint statement
Jul 13 12:21:47 *	fmccor is easy there.
Jul 13 12:22:06 <NeddySeagoon>	I'm happy to put the article togther from everyones inputs
Jul 13 12:22:38 <NeddySeagoon>	Any more for actions from the last meeting ?
Jul 13 12:23:02 <fmccor>	Yes, I had an assignment.
Jul 13 12:23:22 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, I must have missed that ... carry on
Jul 13 12:24:07 <fmccor>	We are looking to put together a licensing agreement for intrenational use when people like pva or our Czech correspondent wish to sell Gentoo branded T-shirts or whatever.
Jul 13 12:24:33 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, yes
Jul 13 12:24:48 <fmccor>	I spoke with Renat and he did put me in contact with his friend who did our Trademark stuff.
Jul 13 12:25:08 <NeddySeagoon>	the pro-bono group ?
Jul 13 12:25:14 <fmccor>	I'm in contact with her, but she is out of the office until about the 22nd of this month.
Jul 13 12:25:29 <NeddySeagoon>	So nothing will happen until then
Jul 13 12:26:05 <fmccor>	We'll talk then, and if that does not work out, Renat has a couple other contacts, too (one where he is currently interning, and one in Boston where he was interning earlier this summer).
Jul 13 12:26:08 <NeddySeagoon>	OK, on to   Open Bugs Assigned to Trustees
Jul 13 12:26:18 <fmccor>	Wait, there's more
Jul 13 12:26:27 <NeddySeagoon>	ok ...
Jul 13 12:27:25 <fmccor>	I think we want to transfer the Trademark to the Foundation from Gentoo-whatever-Daniel-originally-called-it (maybe just a technicality --- I need to ask)
Jul 13 12:27:43 <fmccor>	If we do, I think that's just filling out a form and sending someone $100.
Jul 13 12:27:43 <tsunam>	Gentoo Technologies Inc
Jul 13 12:28:25 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, I thought that was already done
Jul 13 12:28:26 <fmccor>	At least, that's what lawyer Tanda Neustein(?) told Renat.
Jul 13 12:29:01 <fmccor>	Apparently not.  I have to make sure when she is back in her office.
Jul 13 12:29:22 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, I'll rummage my emails after the meeting
Jul 13 12:29:56 <fmccor>	A couple weeks ago or a bit less, two emails from rl03 to the trustees@
Jul 13 12:30:12 <NeddySeagoon>	ok
Jul 13 12:30:29 <fmccor>	Which were basically cover notes for emails from Tanda to him.
Jul 13 12:30:38 *	fmccor is done now. :)
Jul 13 12:30:46 <NeddySeagoon>	OK, on to   Open Bugs Assigned to Trustees
Jul 13 12:31:07 <NeddySeagoon>	177966 Clarify Foundation page on external entities  what do we have to do to kill this one ?
Jul 13 12:33:36 <NeddySeagoon>	Do we put it on hold until the Bylaws are done and we have some idea of where the Foundation is headed ?
Jul 13 12:33:48 <tsunam>	I would say yes
Jul 13 12:33:57 <tsunam>	as the new bylawys should clear up a lot 
Jul 13 12:34:03 <NeddySeagoon>	ok I'll make a note in the agenda
Jul 13 12:34:33 <fmccor>	OK.  I don't even know quite what the bug is referring to.
Jul 13 12:34:39 <NeddySeagoon>	217511 The Gentoo Store is Out of Date   we still need to fix our own store
Jul 13 12:35:07 <NeddySeagoon>	The licencing agreement won't do that
Jul 13 12:35:34 <fmccor>	No, it just lets other people sell Gentoo-branded things.
Jul 13 12:36:44 <NeddySeagoon>	There are 3 options ... close the strore, run it ourselves or appoint some officers (a store project) to do it.  Thoughts ?
Jul 13 12:37:07 *	musikc coughs and mutters something about have PR assist
Jul 13 12:37:27 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, are you volunteering ?
Jul 13 12:37:29 <fmccor>	There's a 4th option, sounds like a good one to me.
Jul 13 12:38:14 <musikc>	id say the trustees would clearly still address the money aspect, but regarding the largest complaint of keeping the store up to date, that could easily and quite logically be delegated to PR as it could be viewed as a public facing entity.
Jul 13 12:38:28 <musikc>	and id need to confer with dberkholz first, just an idea at present ;)
Jul 13 12:39:02 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, thats ok if members of PR became officers of the Foundation ... I don't have a problem with that
Jul 13 12:39:05 <tsunam>	wouldn't need to be a developer, could just be staff and someone recruited for running said store
Jul 13 12:39:16 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, exactly
Jul 13 12:40:08 <musikc>	doesnt require tree access iirc so any staffer or ebuild dev, wouldnt matter. or are you saying someone without a gentoo email address do it?
Jul 13 12:40:11 <NeddySeagoon>	They don't even need to be Foundation members
Jul 13 12:40:29 <fmccor>	It makes sense for the Foundation to designate a PR position; doens't have to be an officer.
Jul 13 12:40:33 <musikc>	id say if an external party would be interested, in line with my suggestion and thinking, bring them in to PR to perform such a task
Jul 13 12:41:01 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, that works too ... they do not need a @g.o email
Jul 13 12:41:21 <musikc>	the email address makes it easy for anyone to know how to contact them, makes it a "no brainer"
Jul 13 12:41:35 <fmccor>	True.
Jul 13 12:41:35 <musikc>	and there are minimal requirements to become a staffer :)
Jul 13 12:41:46 <NeddySeagoon>	We could recruit someone to staff then
Jul 13 12:41:54 <NeddySeagoon>	snap*
Jul 13 12:42:07 <musikc>	1) find a void; 2) propose how to fill it; 3) get someone to vouch for you so you can join   :)
Jul 13 12:42:19 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, yep
Jul 13 12:42:46 <NeddySeagoon>	Maybe put an Ad in situations vacant in the GMN 
Jul 13 12:42:48 <musikc>	if you are interested in the notion of PR assisting with keeping the store up to date, id be happy to start dialog with donnie to assess his interest level and gain his thoughts on the matter
Jul 13 12:43:04 <fmccor>	I'd support it.
Jul 13 12:43:17 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, It seems a logical step, I support it
Jul 13 12:43:29 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, ^^ you ok with that ?
Jul 13 12:43:33 <tsunam>	yep
Jul 13 12:43:37 <fmccor>	I think whoever did it would be "dual staff" --- Gentoo PR staff and Foundation staff.
Jul 13 12:43:46 <fmccor>	But we are already doing that. :)
Jul 13 12:43:48 <musikc>	ok, i'll fire off an email to find a mutally convenient time to discuss the idea more indepth with donnie. im PR staff, he is the lead so i'd want his buy in. ;)
Jul 13 12:43:56 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, You have an action from the meeting then
Jul 13 12:44:02 <musikc>	np
Jul 13 12:44:13 <NeddySeagoon>	thanks
Jul 13 12:44:18 <fmccor>	musikc, Thanks.
Jul 13 12:44:47 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, Its your solo now ... Treasurers Report for FY ending 30 June 2008
Jul 13 12:45:52 <tsunam>	We spent next to no money and have over 80 people donate to Gentoo this year. WE NEED to set a budget for spending money. At least one new server a year for infra as they are still using p3's as core infra boxes
Jul 13 12:46:08 <tsunam>	as you're aware some of them are really showing age, such as the forums frontend box 
Jul 13 12:46:28 <tsunam>	Taking in money without really spending any is not a benefit to anyone
Jul 13 12:46:38 <antarus>	ummm
Jul 13 12:46:40 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, A budget will cover both income and expendature
Jul 13 12:46:50 <antarus>	to be fair, there is nothing wrong with a pIII for some services
Jul 13 12:46:55 <antarus>	aside from power usage
Jul 13 12:46:58 <antarus>	an dheat
Jul 13 12:47:00 <tsunam>	There's a few outstanding repayments as I need to get with paypal and deal with their again new requirements to send money
Jul 13 12:47:12 <tsunam>	antarus: a 6 year old box is a problem
Jul 13 12:47:37 <tsunam>	the likelyhood of failure grows as it goes on
Jul 13 12:48:22 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, do you have a balance sheet that should be published ?
Jul 13 12:48:52 <tsunam>	NeddySeagoon: as i said before the quarterly reports are being worked on currently I made a mistake on a fairly early one that needs to be corrected and reflected in the rest =/
Jul 13 12:49:25 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, bummer.  Should we defer this to the next meeting ?
Jul 13 12:49:31 <tsunam>	Aye
Jul 13 12:49:46 <tsunam>	I should hopefully have them all corrected an updated for the last 3 years by then ~_`
Jul 13 12:50:13 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, You should lead setting a budget too.  IS there time before the next meeting ?
Jul 13 12:50:34 <NeddySeagoon>	Notice lead ... not do it all
Jul 13 12:50:36 <tsunam>	weekends work best for me, or later pst evenings
Jul 13 12:50:56 <wltjr>	sry, this time is very hard for me on Sundays
Jul 13 12:51:18 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, lets discuss meeting times under AOB
Jul 13 12:51:20 <tsunam>	I basically need to talk with a few of the leads where money would be allocated (infra, pr) being two of the main to discuss it
Jul 13 12:51:26 <wltjr>	wrt to bank account I have to get in touch with Wells Fargo to inquire about Roy being outside the US
Jul 13 12:51:40 <wltjr>	they seem to want all on file to be on bank account and we likely have some issues there
Jul 13 12:52:00 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, did you get my encrypted email ?
Jul 13 12:52:20 <fmccor>	wltjr, You should have received some paperwork from me.  If not, then tomorrow, I think.
Jul 13 12:54:01 <NeddySeagoon>	moving on, whe touched on this last meeting   Trustees and Councillors - Potential Conflict of Interest
Jul 13 12:54:54 <fmccor>	Everyone I mentioned it to suggested that doing both was a bad idea.
Jul 13 12:55:18 <NeddySeagoon>	The two bodies are supposed to be separate ... serving on both breaks the separation.
Jul 13 12:55:23 <fmccor>	I don't know if there's an actual conflict or not, but I suggest we just not do it.
Jul 13 12:55:37 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, wltjr ^^
Jul 13 12:55:51 <tsunam>	I won't serve on both ever so =)
Jul 13 12:56:00 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: yes I got your email, but not sure I was able to de-crypt
Jul 13 12:56:01 <NeddySeagoon>	Nor me
Jul 13 12:56:16 <wltjr>	fmccor: nothing from you in mail yet, big city so takes an extra day sometimes
Jul 13 12:56:22 <NeddySeagoon>	Do we need something in the bylaws about it ?
Jul 13 12:56:49 <tsunam>	In this case I would believe so
Jul 13 12:56:54 <wltjr>	I see less of a conflict, more taking on to many high level positions, major voids if we lose 1
Jul 13 12:56:55 <NeddySeagoon>	We won't always be the trustees
Jul 13 12:57:06 <fmccor>	Perhaps.  It would be one line in the qualifications for trustees.
Jul 13 12:57:15 <tsunam>	As a trustee you should not serve on any other governing body of the Gentoo organization
Jul 13 12:57:16 <wltjr>	but if the trustees and counsel work together, as proper checks and balances, they should not share any people
Jul 13 12:57:22 <tsunam>	would be a short snippet
Jul 13 12:57:24 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, thats a part of the isse
Jul 13 12:57:25 <wltjr>	tsunam: agreed
Jul 13 12:57:45 <wltjr>	maybe change should, to cannot
Jul 13 12:58:00 <NeddySeagoon>	Do we need a vote ?   I'll propose some words for Section 5 of the bylaws
Jul 13 12:58:11 <wltjr>	FYI we need bylaws for bank account
Jul 13 12:58:25 <wltjr>	it's part of the paperwork they want to see
Jul 13 12:58:33 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, we are proposing adoption at the nect meeting
Jul 13 12:58:43 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: if you want I think we are all in agreement, but can't hurt to vote if you wish :)
Jul 13 12:58:53 <NeddySeagoon>	ok
Jul 13 12:59:01 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: cool, shouldn't be much left to do, gives me time to find out about international aspects of the bank account
Jul 13 12:59:20 <wltjr>	would suck if because of banking reasons we have to restrict officers or board members to US only
Jul 13 12:59:34 <NeddySeagoon>	Motion to add words to the bylaws that no individual can serve on the council and as a trustee concurrently
Jul 13 12:59:35 <fmccor>	wltjr, We can give then bylaws in current state if we can kill of Section 5 by email next week.
Jul 13 12:59:40 <wltjr>	banks expect there to be an owner, which Gentoo has none, so doesn't help us there with that
Jul 13 12:59:50 <NeddySeagoon>	vote ?
Jul 13 12:59:56 <fmccor>	wltjr, We are a corporation.
Jul 13 12:59:59 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I say top level, which includes infra IMHO
Jul 13 13:00:12 <tsunam>	wltjr: basically wells fargo doesn't do international banking well
Jul 13 13:00:13 <wltjr>	fmccor: still has some form of ownership usually, share holders etc
Jul 13 13:00:28 <wltjr>	tsunam: agreed, and they have some Home Land Security issues as well
Jul 13 13:00:42 <wltjr>	they had new questions DHS made them ask, like international wire transfers
Jul 13 13:01:04 <wltjr>	which I said we might, as if there is people in Russia, Czech, etc selling Gentoo stuff, I assume they might wire the funds monthly or something vs mailing a check
Jul 13 13:01:07 <fmccor>	wltjr, I thought the form just wanted some signatures from officers.
Jul 13 13:01:31 <wltjr>	fmccor: they seem to want all principles, and not sure about our president residing outside the US
Jul 13 13:01:45 <wltjr>	luckily UK is not a big deal, but still in future years, could be another country
Jul 13 13:02:01 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I can sign the form and post it (air mail)
Jul 13 13:02:03 <wltjr>	what happens if we have no one in the US elected to the board one year ?
Jul 13 13:02:12 <fmccor>	We only fill out their form once.
Jul 13 13:02:13 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I am not even sure you can be on the account, I have to find that out
Jul 13 13:02:25 <fmccor>	I wouldn't worry about it.
Jul 13 13:02:43 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I am hoping we can create the account withuot you on it entirely, as I don't think they will let foreigners be on the account, I have to ask, not assume
Jul 13 13:02:45 <fmccor>	At least, not now.
Jul 13 13:02:58 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, ok
Jul 13 13:02:59 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: hang tight, let me call them Monday
Jul 13 13:03:35 <wltjr>	also off topic, some jerk hit my 6mnth old new car the other day, so my time frame next week, etc is going to be crap, followed shortly by a trip to CA 1st-11th for LWE and other business
Jul 13 13:03:47 <fmccor>	wltjr, They ask for addresses only for signaturies.
Jul 13 13:04:06 <wltjr>	I will try to call Wells Fargo on monday, but I also must meet with the insurance adjuster and get my baby to a body shop, and I have  full day of work :(
Jul 13 13:04:21 <fmccor>	wltjr, The other signatures are just signatures and dates.
Jul 13 13:04:28 <wltjr>	fmccor: they want all ids, etc
Jul 13 13:04:39 <wltjr>	fmccor: I need to contact them and ask them some details
Jul 13 13:04:42 <NeddySeagoon>	Lets get it sorted out on Monday
Jul 13 13:04:49 <wltjr>	plus the more we add to the bank account the more we have to remove
Jul 13 13:05:09 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I will try but I have allot going on that day, and unfortunately Gentoo will not be a major priority, life comes first :(
Jul 13 13:05:34 <wltjr>	I think we might be best sticking with just a treasurer and one to two others on the account max if we can
Jul 13 13:05:36 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Fine, I understand ... I was just repeating what you said
Jul 13 13:05:55 <NeddySeagoon>	Moving on ...  International Requests For Gentoo Merchandise
Jul 13 13:05:56 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: roger that :)
Jul 13 13:06:07 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, has already covered that
Jul 13 13:06:21 <NeddySeagoon>	7. Gentoo Tee Shirts - Request from cz
Jul 13 13:06:45 <fmccor>	I'm fine with it.
Jul 13 13:07:09 <NeddySeagoon>	We have had a request to OK tee shirts in .cz  I propose we go ahead while the paperwork is being sorted out
Jul 13 13:07:18 <fmccor>	Agreed.
Jul 13 13:07:35 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, tsunam tgall_foo ^^
Jul 13 13:07:49 <tsunam>	Its fine with me
Jul 13 13:07:51 <musikc>	Are these on the Gentoo store site or a secondary site?
Jul 13 13:07:57 <tsunam>	secondary
Jul 13 13:08:06 *	musikc nods
Jul 13 13:08:13 <tsunam>	with an agreement to give money back to the foundation
Jul 13 13:08:16 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I don't have a problem, they made a generous offer of $2 or something per T
Jul 13 13:08:40 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, a vendor in cz want to use our logo on tee shirts
Jul 13 13:08:44 <musikc>	Just curious now, will they also provide regular statement of activity?
Jul 13 13:09:07 <wltjr>	musikc: well given the informal nature of all of Gentoo's activities, I don't see this being much different
Jul 13 13:09:16 <musikc>	i just recall when wolf was a trustee he spent a lot of man hours tracking down illegal use
Jul 13 13:09:32 <wltjr>	so long as they give something back, I don't see us looking to audit or have them do additional paperwork or reports to us to show us they are being honest and straight forward
Jul 13 13:09:45 <wltjr>	musikc: we are trying to avoid that and reverse it
Jul 13 13:09:47 <fmccor>	musikc, In this case, they asked for permission, so I don't think they want to work illegally.
Jul 13 13:10:17 <musikc>	id be inclined to think they do not wish to use it illegally either, doesnt hurt to ask for a statement of activity does it?
Jul 13 13:10:27 <fmccor>	Not at all.
Jul 13 13:10:38 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, nope.
Jul 13 13:10:41 <musikc>	wltjr, ive no idea what you are referring to when you say "avoid that and reverse it"
Jul 13 13:10:42 <fmccor>	They'd had to provide something, because we want a kick-back.
Jul 13 13:10:43 <wltjr>	musikc: also add some bounty to any tracking down, as once we have a general policy of requiring like 2%, if we have to have counsel go after them, at least there will be some finanial benefit, vs just a cease and desist
Jul 13 13:11:09 <wltjr>	musikc: if we have no policy, no requirement of them giving back to the foundation, then we must go after them for no gain
Jul 13 13:11:28 <wltjr>	if we put forth a general policy, that let's all know what is legal and not, and what the requirements there are
Jul 13 13:12:00 <musikc>	wltjr, read this carefully as i dont say it often, that makes sense and seems rather agreeable. 
Jul 13 13:12:02 *	musikc giggles
Jul 13 13:12:03 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, licence anyone who asks - under the same terms but still hunt down those who don't ask
Jul 13 13:12:20 *	musikc nods
Jul 13 13:12:23 <wltjr>	musikc: more of them coming to us, and having permission without asking, should hopefully lead to less enforcement, and if/when there is the need, there will be some benefit
Jul 13 13:12:53 <musikc>	NeddySeagoon, all sounds logical, was just interested when i saw talk of selling merchandise since ive rather said PR should aid in that area ;)
Jul 13 13:12:56 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I thought the idea behind the policy was not having to ask in the first place
Jul 13 13:13:14 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: if they send us $ who cares if they ask or not, short of being nice to so we are aware of them
Jul 13 13:13:15 <fmccor>	wltjr, No, I don't think so.
Jul 13 13:13:30 <musikc>	wltjr, how could you know the policy was enforced if you've never talked to them? otherwise it would look like any donation and not specifically tied to the actual cause.
Jul 13 13:13:35 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, I will forward you the email, if thats ok with the other trustees here
Jul 13 13:13:35 <fmccor>	We still want to know about them.
Jul 13 13:13:43 fmccor fmccor|away 
Jul 13 13:13:47 <fmccor>	Fine with me.
Jul 13 13:13:50 <musikc>	fmccor, makes sense. give props where due and all
Jul 13 13:13:55 <wltjr>	musikc: easy, company selling stuff, we would know if they are giving back or not, just the same as if they never contacted us, no diff there really
Jul 13 13:14:29 <wltjr>	we could require in a policy that they contact us and get permission
Jul 13 13:14:35 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, the difference is they if they contact us they get a licence ... it could even be a web form
Jul 13 13:14:47 <musikc>	wltjr, seems two different things entirely. one involves someone giving money back and the other involves never knowing that they SHOULD have
Jul 13 13:14:50 <fmccor>	wltjr, They still have to tell us they agree to the license.
Jul 13 13:14:51 <wltjr>	but if they donate funds they collected on behalf of the foundation, I would assume they would provide a note or reason when presenting those funds to the foundation
Jul 13 13:14:58 <musikc>	wltjr, ok, if you require they contact that makes a lot more sense IMO
Jul 13 13:15:07 <wltjr>	musikc: a public policy is like a speed limit
Jul 13 13:15:22 <musikc>	wltjr, be careful with assumptions... we all know what they often lead to
Jul 13 13:15:46 <wltjr>	if we put it out there, it's others job to be aware of and follow the policy, there are many laws that exist we have no clue of, but we must obide by them, and is our responsibility to be aware of them, not the law
Jul 13 13:16:00 <NeddySeagoon>	The details still need to be worked out ...
Jul 13 13:16:04 <fmccor>	wltjr, A license agreement is like a franchise agreement or a contract --- we have a form, and they tell us they agree to it.
Jul 13 13:16:17 <wltjr>	allot of this is based on stuff I was reading from Apples usage stuff, of like the word Apple, their logo etc
Jul 13 13:16:17 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, yep
Jul 13 13:16:19 <musikc>	honestly if someone wants to sell Gentoo branded merchandise, it should not be a stretch to simply say "hey let us know how you're using our logo"
Jul 13 13:16:39 <fmccor>	musikc, correct.
Jul 13 13:16:44 *	fmccor agrees
Jul 13 13:16:52 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, I think they have to, or our logo becomes public domain
Jul 13 13:16:58 <musikc>	exactly
Jul 13 13:17:09 <fmccor>	Indeed, it does.  Like heroin. :)
Jul 13 13:17:18 <musikc>	and id rather avoid the potential for defacing the logo which would undoubtedly happen if it were public domain
Jul 13 13:17:23 <NeddySeagoon>	We have to protect our logo and trade marks
Jul 13 13:17:25 <wltjr>	well international enforcement is a tricky arena
Jul 13 13:17:35 <wltjr>	within the US and with our allies it's one thing
Jul 13 13:17:53 <fmccor>	We can't control pirates.
Jul 13 13:18:23 <musikc>	no way to prevent it from happening, but it is good to be able to have an enforcable policy
Jul 13 13:18:24 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, it depends how hard you have to push - often a polite    did you know ...  is enogh
Jul 13 13:18:32 <wltjr>	but like violation of our policies in Russia, not sure what we could do, nor how that would effect a US trademark status, as in giving other us entities legal right to use without permisison because a Russian one is abusing it
Jul 13 13:18:43 <musikc>	and fmccor, i do believe NeddySeagoon is correct that if we do not enforce it on even one person it would then become public domain.
Jul 13 13:18:50 <fmccor>	But there are some steps we can take to protect our trademark --- I think I put that in my email to the lawyer.
Jul 13 13:18:57 <wltjr>	musikc: domestic or international enforcement?
Jul 13 13:19:04 <wltjr>	it's a domestic trademark right?
Jul 13 13:19:17 <wltjr>	musikc: but I know what you are talking about
Jul 13 13:19:18 <fmccor>	wltjr, I think it's international.
Jul 13 13:19:23 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, I think we have to demonstrate we take 'reasonable steps' to protect our marks
Jul 13 13:19:25 <wltjr>	a perfect example is the walking fingers
Jul 13 13:19:27 <musikc>	wltjr, that sounds like a question for your lawyers :)
Jul 13 13:19:34 <tsunam>	wltjr: its registered with the german version as well
Jul 13 13:19:43 <wltjr>	which used to be trade marked BellSouth, but they did not enforce it, and now they do not own it, every phone book has the walking fingers :)
Jul 13 13:19:56 <tsunam>	so its international afaik
Jul 13 13:20:00 <wltjr>	musikc: which we have no relationship with any at this time
Jul 13 13:20:14 <wltjr>	tsunam: is that tied to the same one that Fenwick did for us?
Jul 13 13:20:38 <tsunam>	nope
Jul 13 13:20:47 <tsunam>	was done by one of the gentoo developers in germany..
Jul 13 13:21:01 <musikc>	wltjr, if the trustees have no relationship with the Gentoo pro bono lawyers i was not aware. did they quit?
Jul 13 13:21:07 <NeddySeagoon>	the eV there ... I think it was ian
Jul 13 13:21:20 <wltjr>	looks like we might need to register or something with the ITA, International Trademark Associaiont
Jul 13 13:21:33 <fmccor>	musikc, I'm in contact with her, but she's out of the office until about the 22nd.
Jul 13 13:21:45 <wltjr>	musikc: we are working on establishing a relationship with them, fmccor is
Jul 13 13:21:55 fmccor fmccor|away 
Jul 13 13:22:07 <wltjr>	musikc: renat worked with them, but right as his term was coming to an end, or after it ended
Jul 13 13:22:08 <musikc>	fmccor, ahhhh, what you said makes more sense than the statement that "we have no relationship"
Jul 13 13:22:27 <wltjr>	musikc: because we presently don't, we have no dialog, we aren't a customer/client of theirs at this time, etc
Jul 13 13:22:30 <musikc>	people take holidays, i say good for them and i need to do the same soon!
Jul 13 13:22:33 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, it got droped in the handover and is being picked up again
Jul 13 13:22:34 <fmccor>	Did I say that?  I certainly shouldn't have if I did.
Jul 13 13:22:40 fmccor fmccor|away 
Jul 13 13:22:45 <musikc>	fmccor, no, wltjr said that
Jul 13 13:22:47 <wltjr>	fmccor: I did
Jul 13 13:23:00 <wltjr>	fmccor: you are trying to establish a relationship now
Jul 13 13:23:09 <wltjr>	we have no clue if they will continue to do any pro bono work, take us on a client, etc
Jul 13 13:23:11 <fmccor>	wltjr, Yes.
Jul 13 13:23:12 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, re-estoblish
Jul 13 13:23:16 <wltjr>	we know what they did
Jul 13 13:23:33 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: well I am not clear the foundation ever was established, short of a few trustees being in contact
Jul 13 13:23:47 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Ah, ok
Jul 13 13:23:47 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: seems to be just renat, not sure if they were in contact with any other
Jul 13 13:23:51 <musikc>	wltjr, do you ahve reason to believe that with the change in trustees they no longer wish to work with us?
Jul 13 13:24:07 <wltjr>	musikc: I have no clue, I would hope and assume they would move forward
Jul 13 13:24:12 <fmccor>	wltjr, And if they are not set up to the international things, Renat knows a couple who are, so we have leads and contacts.
Jul 13 13:24:24 <musikc>	i asked wolf, he said it was always renat who conducted the conversations
Jul 13 13:24:24 <wltjr>	musikc: but we have needs, and they might have been just assisting with the trademark, and did their charitable stuff
Jul 13 13:25:00 <wltjr>	in anything we do it's important the relationship be more the foundation than the point of contact, that the other party knows the point of contact will change, but not the end client
Jul 13 13:25:20 <fmccor>	musikc, wltjr Renat is passing that off to me. because I can talk "lawyer" I guess. :)
Jul 13 13:25:21 <musikc>	wltjr, Gentoo has had the relationship with the pro bono lawyers for years, it was not just for the trademark assistance
Jul 13 13:25:38 <wltjr>	musikc: first I am hearing of that, not sure about others
Jul 13 13:25:50 <wltjr>	musikc: ideally all this stuff would have been dealt with during changing of the guards
Jul 13 13:25:52 <musikc>	i am unsure if it was always the same lawyers, but the assistance has been there for numerous years
Jul 13 13:26:08 <NeddySeagoon>	We seemed to have wandered off Gentoo Tee Shirts - Request from cz and onto  Any other business
Jul 13 13:26:17 <musikc>	wltjr, just ask previous trustees. i just have the added benefit of hollaring at one in the next room. ;)
Jul 13 13:26:18 <wltjr>	musikc: I think it was different, as renat seems to be pursuing a career in law, he has connections all over the place
Jul 13 13:26:36 <wltjr>	musikc: we have, we have gotten info over period as it's been needed
Jul 13 13:26:53 <tsunam>	musikc: you still do...more or less 
Jul 13 13:26:53 <musikc>	wltjr, ok. i was confused when you said it was the first you have heard of it.
Jul 13 13:27:04 <wltjr>	lessons learned for next time around
Jul 13 13:27:05 *	musikc steps back so NeddySeagoon can bring his conversation back to order ;)
Jul 13 13:27:23 <NeddySeagoon>	Lets move to AoB
Jul 13 13:27:29 <wltjr>	musikc: first I have heard of a relationship with Fenwick that wasn't pertaining to the trademark, but could have been other counsel
Jul 13 13:27:44 <wltjr>	I mean we have retained an attorney in NM, but he can't help with much outside of local issues
Jul 13 13:27:45 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, you want do discuss a change to the meeting time ?
Jul 13 13:28:01 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: if possible, sundays are very hard in the summer and likely same afterward
Jul 13 13:28:14 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, when do you r propose ?
Jul 13 13:28:20 *	wltjr is making an effor to not work on weekends, and to have a life :)
Jul 13 13:28:26 *	musikc giggles
Jul 13 13:28:28 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: weekday would be best, but not sure that works for others
Jul 13 13:28:34 <musikc>	wltjr, pay a 10 year old to cut your grass then :)
Jul 13 13:28:42 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Its ok for me
Jul 13 13:28:47 <fmccor>	Works for me if not too late.
Jul 13 13:28:51 <wltjr>	musikc: I need the excercise, and for the size of my lawn it wouldn't be cheap
Jul 13 13:29:06 <wltjr>	but yard work is hardly what I tend to do on Sundays, go to the beach is more like it :)
Jul 13 13:29:16 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, It won't be late, it needs to be about 19:00 UTC for me
Jul 13 13:29:20 *	fmccor starts his work day at about 7:00AM (1100 UTC).
Jul 13 13:29:25 <musikc>	wltjr, my little brother used to do it. managed to get a used riding mower and made quite the profit afterwards ;)
Jul 13 13:29:31 <fmccor>	1900UTC is perfect for me.
Jul 13 13:29:56 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, tsunam tgall_foo ^^
Jul 13 13:30:00 <wltjr>	musikc: I have thought of hiring a law service and maid, but that's more $ each month, and have to have it coming in
Jul 13 13:30:12 <wltjr>	contrary to popular opinion I am not wealthy and do not make allot of $
Jul 13 13:30:32 <fmccor>	On the west coast, that's noon, and for tgall_foo , it's 1:00PM
Jul 13 13:30:34 <wltjr>	wrt to Gentoo I make 0, and the more I think about that, I believe Gentoo is costing me and my business $, but that's for another day
Jul 13 13:30:38 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, what day for you ?
Jul 13 13:30:50 <tsunam>	1900 works
Jul 13 13:30:51 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: any weekday is good, I hvae regular work schedules for the most part
Jul 13 13:31:00 <musikc>	wltjr, i dont think anyone believes you are wealthy, you've said repeatedly how you own your own business and work hard to keep it going. :)
Jul 13 13:31:36 <wltjr>	musikc: work my arse off, I work more and harder than if I worked for someone and make a bit less $
Jul 13 13:31:49 <NeddySeagoon>	What about a Monday ? ... but really I have no preference
Jul 13 13:31:50 <wltjr>	actually allot less, but that should change in time, and most of the time I enjoy what I do
Jul 13 13:31:51 <fmccor>	Verify the time with tgall_foo , I guess, and let him pick a day if it matters.
Jul 13 13:32:35 <wltjr>	as long as it's not like the second or first Tuesdays, as we have Java team meetings at 18:00 UTC
Jul 13 13:32:38 <NeddySeagoon>	I cannot get on IRC from work and most of you would be in bed if I did :)
Jul 13 13:32:39 *	fmccor does not care what day, but has come to loathe weekend meetings.
Jul 13 13:32:46 <wltjr>	but that might be ok  as well, just 2 hours of gentoo meetings :(
Jul 13 13:32:58 <wltjr>	resulting in 0 commits :(
Jul 13 13:33:18 <NeddySeagoon>	I'm proposing Monday
Jul 13 13:33:50 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: should be fine, and ty for considering moving the day of the week
Jul 13 13:33:51 <NeddySeagoon>	DONM Moday Aug 18 at 1900 UTC
Jul 13 13:33:59 <NeddySeagoon>	Monday*
Jul 13 13:34:23 <wltjr>	it will really help in my attendance because I keep much better track of my time, appointements, meetings, etc during the week
Jul 13 13:34:24 <NeddySeagoon>	tsunam, AoB ?
Jul 13 13:34:29 <tsunam>	none
Jul 13 13:34:38 <wltjr>	oh one last thing
Jul 13 13:34:41 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, AoB ?
Jul 13 13:34:42 <wltjr>	major thing actually
Jul 13 13:34:50 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, contine
Jul 13 13:34:53 <fmccor>	NeddySeagoon, Nope.
Jul 13 13:34:56 <wltjr>	we need to put forth a vote at some point IMHO, in house foundation or like SPI
Jul 13 13:35:15 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, we do ... thats months off yet
Jul 13 13:35:23 <wltjr>	I think we want to stay in house, but to do so will likely require some changes, organization, structure, etc that many aren't cool with
Jul 13 13:35:33 <NeddySeagoon>	We need a stable Foundation first
Jul 13 13:35:42 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: ok, I thought we wanted to know before getting to committed with bank account, etc
Jul 13 13:35:58 *	wltjr will be pissed to put hours, weeks, or more time into stuff just to see it reversed 
Jul 13 13:36:07 <fmccor>	wltjr, Perhaps.  But I certainly think we want to stay in house.
Jul 13 13:36:20 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, we want to set up as if its in house ... then decide the long term future
Jul 13 13:36:32 <wltjr>	fmccor: I do as well, but I think we should have a global vote to decided, although we technically could as elected representatives
Jul 13 13:36:43 <fmccor>	Why?
Jul 13 13:37:05 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, feel free to air your views in your GMN part of the Trustee special
Jul 13 13:37:08 <wltjr>	fmccor: because it's been clear some of the things that are necessary are very controversial
Jul 13 13:37:10 <fmccor>	wltjr, We are already set up in house --- why would we need a vote to keep doing that?
Jul 13 13:37:17 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: yeah I need to do something there
Jul 13 13:37:23 <wltjr>	fmccor: we aren't really
Jul 13 13:37:40 <wltjr>	fmccor: we don't have a bank account, no financial reporting, no budget, etc
Jul 13 13:37:57 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, those things are all coming
Jul 13 13:37:58 <fmccor>	And we are actively pursuing all of that.
Jul 13 13:37:59 <wltjr>	fmccor: we are slowing resurrecting the pieces, but again allot of work that could easily be reversed
Jul 13 13:38:08 <fmccor>	how?
Jul 13 13:38:17 <wltjr>	fmccor: is there interest in the foundation?
Jul 13 13:38:25 <wltjr>	fmccor: will people want to run in a year or so
Jul 13 13:38:40 <wltjr>	do people even want to see the foundation being active
Jul 13 13:38:42 <fmccor>	Sure.
Jul 13 13:38:52 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, thats a longer term issue.  We have to be sound and legal before we join an umbrella
Jul 13 13:39:11 <NeddySeagoon>	if we choose to go that way
Jul 13 13:39:16 <wltjr>	fmccor: I am not so sure, it seems most want the foundation to stick to it's limited roll and agenda, which IMHO doesn't make much sense at all to have a foundation vs outside management
Jul 13 13:39:40 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: BS, the entire point of joining an umbrella is for them to do the boring work and to get us legal and keep us legal
Jul 13 13:39:55 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: SPI has no requirements for our condition when we come to them
Jul 13 13:40:10 <musikc>	hmmm... if i may?
Jul 13 13:40:16 <fmccor>	Please.
Jul 13 13:40:21 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc sure
Jul 13 13:40:22 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: the point is the SPI would do for us everything we are now, without us struggling to do it
Jul 13 13:40:41 <wltjr>	they would manage bank account, funds, reporting, tax filings, donation reports, etc
Jul 13 13:40:58 <musikc>	it makes far more sense to have an organized house to hand over, if thats the decided upon course, than a disorganized one. if you hand over disorganization how do you know if you are getting what you want out of the agreement when you didnt know what you had to begin with?
Jul 13 13:41:14 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I don't share your confidence but maybe you have looked into it a lot more than me
Jul 13 13:41:21 <fmccor>	musikc, I agree absolutely with that.
Jul 13 13:41:23 <wltjr>	musikc: most of our organization goes away and is not required to join an umbrella
Jul 13 13:41:30 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc++
Jul 13 13:41:31 <wltjr>	for example, we don't need a bank account for SPI or SFC
Jul 13 13:41:38 <wltjr>	as they have their own acounts that funds go into
Jul 13 13:41:48 <wltjr>	so us creating and having a bank account, means squat to joining an umbrella
Jul 13 13:42:03 <musikc>	wltjr, i see your line of thought and appreciate the thought put into it, however i still hold the opinion that you should know what you are handing over first.
Jul 13 13:42:04 <fmccor>	wltjr, We have to carry on as we are now anyway, no matter what we might choose in the future.
Jul 13 13:42:06 <wltjr>	any legal filings, they have to either undo, or correct/change, so having stuff is almost more work than not
Jul 13 13:42:18 <wltjr>	musikc: I spoke with the SPI let us not forget
Jul 13 13:42:36 <fmccor>	wltjr, And I don't think any of us want to hand it over in any case.
Jul 13 13:42:37 <wltjr>	they are different than the SFC to an extent, much more organized, but have little to no requirements
Jul 13 13:42:47 <wltjr>	and we are already further along than were things were at when I was talking to them
Jul 13 13:43:23 <musikc>	wltjr, you and others have spoken to different groups. it doesnt change the value to knowing what you hand over. and if it requires a bit of work for them to transition it to their group then so be it, at least they know what work they would have to do instead of uncertainity.
Jul 13 13:43:28 <wltjr>	fmccor: agreed, but the foundation has little to no authority, and if it tries to exert any it quickly becomes controversial
Jul 13 13:43:41 <wltjr>	musikc: I spoke ot the SFC as well
Jul 13 13:43:54 <fmccor>	So, remove the "quickly" bit.
Jul 13 13:43:58 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I don't want to jooin an umbrella while we still have a chance to make a go of our own Foundation.  
Jul 13 13:44:05 <wltjr>	musikc: the SFC is very differet from the SPI, much newer and mostly dealing with smaller entities with way less BS
Jul 13 13:44:09 <musikc>	NeddySeagoon ++
Jul 13 13:44:14 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I agree, but I am not sure we have the support
Jul 13 13:44:17 <fmccor>	NeddySeagoon, agreed
Jul 13 13:44:25 <wltjr>	thus a vote would show what direction will be supported by the community
Jul 13 13:44:44 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, don't worry about a little controversy ... it stirrs the sediment
Jul 13 13:44:45 <wltjr>	I have no interest in pursuing directions that are not supported, that means we will be pissing in the wind the entire time for any effort or action
Jul 13 13:44:51 <musikc>	wltjr, this discussion seems premature. it appears that others in trustees wish to continue efforts.
Jul 13 13:45:07 <fmccor>	Agreed.
Jul 13 13:45:18 <musikc>	i support the interest to continue and move forward and look forward to reviewing any ideas you folks share
Jul 13 13:45:25 <wltjr>	ok, so does anyone else want ot spend hours this week talking to Wells Fargo?
Jul 13 13:45:46 <wltjr>	regardless of how we feel, in a year we will potentially be replaced
Jul 13 13:45:57 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, we need this discussion sometime but it needs a dedicated meeting and airing on the -ml *after* we can stand on our own feet
Jul 13 13:46:06 <wltjr>	so anything we do can be undone, unless the community and others share the common long term direction and goals
Jul 13 13:46:17 <musikc>	wltjr, your opinion. any of you can run again and if the foundation members feel your work was just and valuable you'd likely be voted in again. :)
Jul 13 13:45:46 <wltjr>	regardless of how we feel, in a year we will potentially be replaced
Jul 13 13:45:57 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, we need this discussion sometime but it needs a dedicated meeting and airing on the -ml *after* we can stand on our own feet
Jul 13 13:46:06 <wltjr>	so anything we do can be undone, unless the community and others share the common long term direction and goals
Jul 13 13:46:17 <musikc>	wltjr, your opinion. any of you can run again and if the foundation members feel your work was just and valuable you'd likely be voted in again. :)
Jul 13 13:46:27 <wltjr>	standing on our own two feet is hardly trivial
Jul 13 13:46:38 <wltjr>	I am just trying to justify my time is all
Jul 13 13:46:40 <musikc>	wltjr, anything anyone does in Gentoo could be undone. it's not just for trustees. :)
Jul 13 13:46:46 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, of course not, its running a busines
Jul 13 13:46:55 <wltjr>	musikc: yes, but legal issues are much harder
Jul 13 13:47:03 <wltjr>	musikc: look at what must be done to open an bank account
Jul 13 13:47:16 <wltjr>	it's HOURS of work, and is not glorious like commiting to tree or etc
Jul 13 13:47:16 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, not harded, just more protracted
Jul 13 13:47:41 <wltjr>	and a business with no structure will fail, as has the foundation time and time again
Jul 13 13:47:42 <musikc>	wltjr, so good work doesnt happen easily. you of all people are well aware of that from your experience with your own small business. :)
Jul 13 13:47:51 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I do hours of work and never commit to the tree :(
Jul 13 13:48:00 <wltjr>	put another way, how many years has the foundation existed, and how many has it operated smoothly and as it shoudl for?
Jul 13 13:48:15 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: technical stuff is different I enjoy that
Jul 13 13:48:27 <wltjr>	I do not enjoy calling about bank accounts, signing stuff that needs to be mailed, etc
Jul 13 13:48:50 <musikc>	wltjr, so because others failed or did what could be viewed as sub par work no one should try to rectify that? you wanted this role to make a difference, do not now be afraid to act for fear of it being undone.
Jul 13 13:48:53 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I think its only operated properly since March this year ... or at least visibly so
Jul 13 13:49:12 <wltjr>	musikc: no, my point is action without support is pointless
Jul 13 13:49:14 <fmccor>	It started off well.
Jul 13 13:49:21 <wltjr>	musikc: if we correct, but the community doesn't care, it will happen again
Jul 13 13:49:40 <wltjr>	it's not us that sees our work through, it's the community
Jul 13 13:49:42 <musikc>	wltjr, or if the community supports it now, what is to say that the opinion wont change in a year or two?
Jul 13 13:49:52 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I think you have been doing a good job of making others aware that the Foundation is alive and kicking, even if its not made you friends
Jul 13 13:50:09 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: it's literally almost driven me from Gentoo
Jul 13 13:50:10 <musikc>	things change, do not be afraid to act due to fear of change. you guys hold a valuable job and one that is needed.
Jul 13 13:50:17 <wltjr>	I am so beat up wrt to Foundation stuff, I have no clue where I stand on any of it
Jul 13 13:50:23 <fmccor>	wltjr, Everything I see suggests that the community appreciates what we are doing.
Jul 13 13:50:28 <wltjr>	IMHO is all starting to seem like totally wasted time on stuff people just don't care about
Jul 13 13:50:42 <musikc>	wltjr, you seem disenchanted
Jul 13 13:50:44 <wltjr>	fmccor: really?
Jul 13 13:50:49 <wltjr>	so who supported my sponsor survey?
Jul 13 13:50:57 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, have a few weeks off ... The foundation is hard work
Jul 13 13:50:59 <wltjr>	1 person, and 1 new sponsor
Jul 13 13:51:23 <wltjr>	who within gentoo is doing anything to try to help or support the foundation?
Jul 13 13:51:27 <musikc>	wltjr, not everyone will agree with every suggestion. doesnt mean you should just put away the drawing board.
Jul 13 13:51:38 <wltjr>	musikc: I have run out of suggestions
Jul 13 13:51:49 <wltjr>	I have come up with stuff on both sides, in the middle, etc no one is happy with anything
Jul 13 13:51:51 <musikc>	wltjr, perhaps try NeddySeagoon's suggestion and take a break
Jul 13 13:52:02 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, sponsors are going to be a really contraversial can of worms ... no major sponsors donate to the Foundation
Jul 13 13:52:02 <wltjr>	musikc: which includes you at one point, as well as others
Jul 13 13:52:05 <NeddySeagoon>	... yest
Jul 13 13:52:09 <NeddySeagoon>	yet
Jul 13 13:52:20 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: no they are easy, our new sponsor was great
Jul 13 13:52:24 <musikc>	wltjr, oh you have made suggestions that i am completely opposed to. doesnt mean i think you should stop thinking or suggesting.
Jul 13 13:52:29 <wltjr>	the hard part is existing sponsors, and going through infra
Jul 13 13:52:38 <wltjr>	as it seems even updating the sponsors page is a infra matter, which is odd
Jul 13 13:52:55 <wltjr>	so infra deals with sponsors, another duty of the foudation, that no one wants to see the foundation handle
Jul 13 13:53:00 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, when they can see a tax advantage, it will get easier to move them
Jul 13 13:53:24 <wltjr>	musikc: well when ever idea one has get's shot down, it doesn't motivate one to keep on, instead just shut up and let others propose ideas
Jul 13 13:53:29 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Our sponsors do *not* (yet) donate to the Foundation
Jul 13 13:53:59 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: tax advantages heh, a 5yr process, I am not confident the house will stay in order for 1yr much less 5, tax incentives are a pipe dream IMHO
Jul 13 13:54:16 <wltjr>	like if we are serious about 501c3 and umbrella is the only for sure way IMHO
Jul 13 13:54:19 <musikc>	wltjr, that's one way to look at it, giving up. or you could instead find another view point to work and give it another go.
Jul 13 13:54:21 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, dreams are how it all starts
Jul 13 13:55:04 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, an umbrella may be lowest risk ... that does not make it right
Jul 13 13:55:05 <wltjr>	musikc: another point of view is to let ideas play out before shooting them down on the drawing board
Jul 13 13:55:32 <wltjr>	which for example a while back stuff I believe astinus or antarus I always mix the two, was shooting down on -nfp, months later retracted it on irc, which is like wtf?
Jul 13 13:55:41 <musikc>	wltjr, sorry i dont agree that ideas should be implemented before reviewed, discussed, and possibly re-written.
Jul 13 13:56:10 <musikc>	wltjr, people change. perhaps someone gave it more thought and was swayed to your line of thought. doesnt seem like a bad thing imo. :)
Jul 13 13:56:14 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, thats the real world, people change their minds
Jul 13 13:56:20 <wltjr>	musikc: I can say wrt to you and Chris, you all don't know me at all, and some of my ideas you had other assumptions behind, so shot down things you didn't fully understand, because assuming one knows who they are coming from
Jul 13 13:56:56 <wltjr>	musikc: the more you rip ideas apart, the more time you spend spinning your wheels
Jul 13 13:56:56 <musikc>	wltjr, i feel you are making this personal and hope that is not the case especially given you are talking to me about someone who is not even present.
Jul 13 13:57:03 <wltjr>	more time is lost to indecision than wrong decision
Jul 13 13:57:05 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, they key their is 'didn't fully understand'   -  thats not a reason for giving up
Jul 13 13:57:10 <wltjr>	everyone is so fearful of being wrong, nothing happens
Jul 13 13:57:26 <wltjr>	put another way, as I have said before
Jul 13 13:57:36 <wltjr>	a new dev comes on board, we give them full access/ability to destroy the tree
Jul 13 13:57:42 <musikc>	wltjr, who is fearful of being wrong? it seems that you are expressing your own views as you are the one who is expressing apathy towards suggestions for fear of being shot down.
Jul 13 13:57:50 <wltjr>	new trustee comes on board, who has been around the community for some time, no trust or faith
Jul 13 13:58:04 <fmccor>	wltjr, A negative reaction or a disagreement is just that.  It doesn't necessarily shoot something down (if it did, my life would be much simpler), it just forces dialog and perhaps compromise.
Jul 13 13:58:13 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, its not the same ... new job, new tree ... 
Jul 13 13:58:21 fmccor fmccor|away 
Jul 13 13:58:34 <wltjr>	I am just beat up, and if others are more optomistic then more power to them
Jul 13 13:58:41 <musikc>	wltjr, please ask fmccor. he can attest that we do not always agree yet through mutual respect we manage every day and every week to move forward. :)
Jul 13 13:58:46 <wltjr>	but I seem to always end up in the trenches shoveling the crap
Jul 13 13:59:04 <fmccor>	wltjr, musikc is right, you know.
Jul 13 13:59:16 <wltjr>	like I am no longer invovled with by laws process, which I never wanted to be part of, but felt it needed to be reviewed and discussed in depth
Jul 13 13:59:36 <wltjr>	next thing I am spear heading that, and ideas are all being attested to me personally
Jul 13 13:59:51 <wltjr>	just looking to help with bank account, and now I am doing that as well
Jul 13 13:59:52 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, The reaction I have seen to your proposals is one of 'shock horror' because they are out of he blue, not because of resoned well thought out objections
Jul 13 14:00:12 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: exactly, so they should shut up and object when there is reason to, not theory
Jul 13 14:00:14 <fmccor>	wltjr, Let's just say that devrel's private conversations would not earn a CoC seal of approval (unless you are thinking Call of Cthulhu :) )
Jul 13 14:00:32 <wltjr>	fmccor: I have no clue what your referencing or meaning there
Jul 13 14:00:32 *	musikc giggles
Jul 13 14:00:35 <antarus>	wltjr: you don't make a good sell ;)
Jul 13 14:00:44 <tsunam>	it sounds like the meeting has digressed...
Jul 13 14:00:59 <wltjr>	I am really sick of stuff being personally tied to me, I have my own business and my own clients who all are business owners, I have lots of other places for my personal ideas
Jul 13 14:01:02 <musikc>	wltjr, means me and fmccor have knock out drag out fights regularly, but we lick our wounds and move on and find common ground again. :)
Jul 13 14:01:09 <antarus>	also you seem to be in a hurry and then when things are not done at your own pace you take up more stuff
Jul 13 14:01:19 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, the fault, if there is one, is on both sides.   Change can come in any direction you like, but slowly ...   you have to prepare the way
Jul 13 14:01:22 <antarus>	no one is forcing you to tak eon more tasks ;)
Jul 13 14:01:31 <antarus>	don't overload yourself
Jul 13 14:01:40 <musikc>	hehe, NeddySeagoon, isnt it ghandi who said you must be the change you wish to see?
Jul 13 14:01:42 <wltjr>	musikc: this stuff has caused me to become ineffective as a trustee, hated as a person, hurt some relationships, kills any technical commit time to gentoo, robs time from my business, and is all making me pretty bitter
Jul 13 14:01:53 <fmccor>	wltjr, Call if Cthulhu is a pretty well known horror story by H.P. Lovecraft and a role playing game. :)
Jul 13 14:01:55 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, something like that
Jul 13 14:02:11 <tsunam>	fmccor: a very good short story
Jul 13 14:02:18 <tsunam>	fmccor: but I'd not call it horror
Jul 13 14:02:30 <musikc>	wltjr, i can see the bitterness coming through. im sorry you are dealing with that. perhaps you should take the time as neddy suggests and step back, you can later review it after you are well rested.
Jul 13 14:02:33 <wltjr>	antarus: nope but stuff doesn't get done either way, I really didn't want to be a trustee, but there was  void that needed to be filled, no one else stepped up so I did
Jul 13 14:02:47 <fmccor>	tsunam, Maybe not.  It is a good story, though.
Jul 13 14:02:52 <wltjr>	musikc: were you there almost a year ago when I was discussiong foundation stuff?
Jul 13 14:03:10 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Stuff will still get done, just more slowly
Jul 13 14:03:12 <wltjr>	at LWE?
Jul 13 14:03:15 <musikc>	wltjr, yes. i sat quietly and let you share your thoughts regardless of my opinions.
Jul 13 14:03:33 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: the longer it takes for things to happen, the less time we have to see the work through
Jul 13 14:03:48 <musikc>	wltjr, it is good to air out your thoughts with peers. doesnt mean everyone will later accept them as first suggested though. lots of ideas require revisions.
Jul 13 14:03:55 <wltjr>	musikc: well all ideas were shot down, my point is almost 1yr solid now carrying about the foundation
Jul 13 14:04:15 <wltjr>	hasn't improved my life at all, in or outside of Gentoo, I am not to convinced the foundation is any better off
Jul 13 14:04:16 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Nah, we just change our term of office.  Thats only partly in jest
Jul 13 14:04:37 <fmccor>	wltjr, I work on the belief that if I run again, I'll be re-elect, and in any event I'm an officer of the Foundation until someone else is appointed. :)
Jul 13 14:04:49 <wltjr>	we aren't getting anywhere, and pretty sure meeting is long over, so I will just let others get on with it
Jul 13 14:04:51 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I'm sure the Foundation is better off for your contribution
Jul 13 14:05:07 <fmccor>	Oh, for sure it is.
Jul 13 14:05:08 <musikc>	wltjr, you do seem very bitter and disenchanted with the entire Gentoo experience you currently have. take a break so you can view tihngs with fresh eyes.
Jul 13 14:05:10 *	musikc nods
Jul 13 14:05:13 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I am not, and I am less happy wrt to Gentoo overall now
Jul 13 14:05:22 <wltjr>	musikc: no I love the technical experiences
Jul 13 14:05:32 <wltjr>	I love the java team, and people I work with there, whom I have not been workign with for most of the year
Jul 13 14:05:33 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Take a break from the Foundation stuff
Jul 13 14:05:58 <musikc>	you've raised a cause that was dying, that alone was good. now you are actively trying to restore and make improvements. not sure how that's bad. just be patient with others when they dont instantly side with your suggestions.
Jul 13 14:06:05 <NeddySeagoon>	fmccor, can you pick up the banking stuff ?
Jul 13 14:06:28 <fmccor>	NeddySeagoon, No; I'm not qualified for that.  
Jul 13 14:06:35 <tsunam>	hand it back to me
Jul 13 14:06:45 <tsunam>	I'll figure a way to make time
Jul 13 14:06:48 <wltjr>	tsunam: nothing stopping you from making the calls
Jul 13 14:06:54 <wltjr>	we all have the info
Jul 13 14:07:07 <fmccor>	I think tgall_foo was experienced, and at this point, if I read it right, it's mostly a matter of collecting paperwork at this point.
Jul 13 14:07:09 <tsunam>	other then I get to work at 7:30ish and go go go until end of the day :-P
Jul 13 14:07:09 <wltjr>	I literally put in my agenda I have little to no time
Jul 13 14:07:17 <wltjr>	that any time I spent I wanted to see results sooner than later
Jul 13 14:07:21 *	musikc pokes tsunam 
Jul 13 14:07:26 <wltjr>	that hasn't been the case, and it's resulting in more time from me, and no results
Jul 13 14:07:27 <musikc>	:-P
Jul 13 14:07:47 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Please take a break
Jul 13 14:07:48 <fmccor>	I sent my forms to William; he can send them on.
Jul 13 14:07:52 <musikc>	wltjr, it is unrealistic to say that everything must happen right away
Jul 13 14:07:56 <wltjr>	and while things like the by laws are almost complete, IMHO it's still pretty half ass
Jul 13 14:08:07 <tsunam>	so we take more time on them
Jul 13 14:08:13 <wltjr>	like wrt to Foundation members, wtf are they? what does being a member mean?
Jul 13 14:08:20 <tsunam>	rather have them right then half assed true?
Jul 13 14:08:22 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, the bylaws will always be a moving target
Jul 13 14:08:55 <fmccor>	I think the bylaws are good enough.  We can amend them as needed, and it's much more important to have them in place than to have them perfect.
Jul 13 14:08:56 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: sure for minor changes, but I don't see the members section being constantly re-written
Jul 13 14:09:04 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr Members ... maybe nothing yet but we can change that
Jul 13 14:09:07 <tsunam>	<--is in need of food
Jul 13 14:09:19 <musikc>	<---- is in need of a movie
Jul 13 14:09:28 <NeddySeagoon>	Any more AoB ?
Jul 13 14:09:35 *	fmccor is in need of food, too, but for a different meal, probably.
Jul 13 14:09:37 <wltjr>	no I am done, other things to do
Jul 13 14:09:42 <tsunam>	fmccor: yar
Jul 13 14:09:47 <NeddySeagoon>	Open floor ...
Jul 13 14:10:07 <NeddySeagoon>	Anybody anything else ?
Jul 13 14:10:26 *	NeddySeagoon declares the meeting closed
Jul 13 14:10:28 <antarus>	poll dancing
Jul 13 14:10:30 <fmccor>	wltjr, Can you send the forms I sent you to Joshua, or should I send him copies directly?
Jul 13 14:10:43 <wltjr>	fmccor: I can send, but you all are getting ahead of yourself
Jul 13 14:10:52 <NeddySeagoon>	antarus, its pole :)
Jul 13 14:10:58 <wltjr>	we need to answers to questions to find out if we can even proceed with Wells Fargo
Jul 13 14:11:02 <antarus>	NeddySeagoon: election year and all that ;)
Jul 13 14:11:03 *	musikc giggles at antarus for his poll dance
Jul 13 14:11:10 <antarus>	(and I cannot spell)
Jul 13 14:11:13 <wltjr>	like if they require the president to be on file, but they have to be a US citizen we are screwed
Jul 13 14:11:20 <tsunam>	wltjr: just let me know where you got and I'll follow up
Jul 13 14:11:27 <musikc>	wltjr, you are jumping the gun. tsunam has agreed to assist so you can take time off. :)
Jul 13 14:11:54 <wltjr>	tsunam: I can call them at least and get answers, which I assume will take ~30 minutes, since they will have to ask a supervisor and are not common/normal questions
Jul 13 14:11:55 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr Nope, we can switch offices
Jul 13 14:12:12 <wltjr>	tsunam: do you want to call them? do you know the questions I am talking about
Jul 13 14:12:24 <wltjr>	musikc: to a point I have to see some of it through since my name, phone # etc is tied to the account
Jul 13 14:12:36 <tsunam>	wltjr: I just need an email that gives the current situation and general what needs to be done
Jul 13 14:12:40 <wltjr>	info we need to have on file with them but haven't discussed
Jul 13 14:12:40 <tsunam>	wltjr: I'll follow from there
Jul 13 14:12:44 <musikc>	wltjr, that would be a problem if only one person can even discuss the account
Jul 13 14:12:51 <wltjr>	not to mention I dislike the bank account address being Mr. Chews
Jul 13 14:12:51 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, there is no account yet ... yo are however, the contact 
Jul 13 14:13:07 <wltjr>	musikc: yes, we have lots of problems wrt to bank account
Jul 13 14:13:15 <tsunam>	we'll work on it
Jul 13 14:13:15 <musikc>	no account = anyone can call and ask questions
Jul 13 14:13:23 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: there is an account application underway
Jul 13 14:13:51 <tsunam>	wltjr: I'll look for the email from you and work on it as soon as I can
Jul 13 14:13:54 <tsunam>	for now I'm out
Jul 13 14:13:55 <musikc>	so the trustees are opening an account in which wltjr is the only one who can ask questions or make changes? doesnt sound right, i must be misunderstanding something.
Jul 13 14:13:57 <wltjr>	till we provide paperwork they won't know who else can deal with the account, aside from me since I made the call and started the process
Jul 13 14:13:58 <fmccor>	Banks can't be surprised to learn that a corporation might have officers outside the US.
Jul 13 14:14:11 fmccor fmccor|away 
Jul 13 14:14:12 <musikc>	good point fmccor
Jul 13 14:14:14 <wltjr>	musikc: because banks are not setup for a hybrid organization like ours
Jul 13 14:14:17 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, apparently not.  From their website,  that won't start until they check over the paperwork
Jul 13 14:14:21 <wltjr>	it's very difficult
Jul 13 14:14:34 <wltjr>	musikc: like when they were inquiring about owners, etc
Jul 13 14:14:46 <wltjr>	we have no share holders, no one owns gentoo, and that is not like most any other business
Jul 13 14:14:46 <fmccor>	wltjr, We're a not-for-profit corporation.  What's unusual about that?  
Jul 13 14:14:59 <musikc>	wltjr, i think someone just needs to take some time. shouldnt be that difficult or unusual, as fmccor points out.
Jul 13 14:15:03 <wltjr>	fmccor: that no one lives in the state of the NPO, the NPO has no address of it's own
Jul 13 14:15:06 <wltjr>	fmccor: there are tons of problems
Jul 13 14:15:09 <fmccor>	We have members.
Jul 13 14:15:12 <wltjr>	the NPO doesn't have a phone #
Jul 13 14:15:20 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, The Foundation owns whatever there is to own
Jul 13 14:15:26 <wltjr>	fmccor: members don't mean squat wrt to a bank acount, that doesn't show ownership
Jul 13 14:15:46 >NeddySeagoon<	wltjr's negative attitude is getting annoying
Jul 13 14:15:47 <wltjr>	while the foundation is a legal entity, banks tie that to individuals as a entity can't managed a bank account
Jul 13 14:15:59 <fmccor>	We have a board and we have officers.
Jul 13 14:16:03 <wltjr>	individuals that work for or authorized by the entity due, thus the account get's tied to people as well as the entity
Jul 13 14:16:10 <wltjr>	fmccor: yes which must all be on file for the account
Jul 13 14:16:26 <wltjr>	fmccor: which also will all change at some point, and no clue how the bank will deal or react to taht
Jul 13 14:16:36 <fmccor>	At least for signature authority.
Jul 13 14:16:50 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, hand over to tsunam and take a month or so off from the Foundation please
Jul 13 14:16:52 <fmccor>	wltjr, Who cares?  That shouldn't surprise them either.
Jul 13 14:17:12 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I can, but that's only going to set tsunam back in other efforts
Jul 13 14:17:33 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr We all know that.
Jul 13 14:17:34 <wltjr>	plus till I do something with Wells Fargo, pretty sure I am the only one who can proceed, unless we start a new application or something
Jul 13 14:17:43 <NeddySeagoon>	Thisng will slow down but not stop
Jul 13 14:18:00 <musikc>	wltjr, you said there is no account, only paperwork for an account that has yet to be processed. people back out before accounts are started every day. this isnt rocket science. take your break and trust in your fellow trustees. :)
Jul 13 14:18:06 <wltjr>	well how many months has it been since we were legal again, which was the road block to a bank account
Jul 13 14:18:28 <wltjr>	I understand tsunam is short on time, that's why I got involved, so stepping back just to see the matter put off for another month or two isn't encouragement
Jul 13 14:18:36 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Its a hobby, not life and death
Jul 13 14:18:40 <wltjr>	musikc: opening an account is a process, which is underway
Jul 13 14:18:55 <wltjr>	musikc: the process is not complete, but there is stuff on file, and I assume a bank account # tied to that info
Jul 13 14:19:18 <wltjr>	musikc: I provided them with a bunch of info to start the process, we just have to follow through with paperwork
Jul 13 14:19:18 <musikc>	wltjr, what would happen if you quit tomorrow or heaven forbid you were injured or killed? your peers will be able to go on in your absence so enjoy some time off. :)
Jul 13 14:19:41 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, WF site said that after they had our stuff, someone would contact us about opening the account
Jul 13 14:19:49 <NeddySeagoon>	Its only first contact so far
Jul 13 14:19:52 <wltjr>	musikc: if that was the case, I wouldn't even be on the board :)
Jul 13 14:20:02 <fmccor>	Wells Fargo wants our business, we want them, so they're not looking for reasons to turn us down or throw up roadblocks.
Jul 13 14:20:09 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: yes to complete the process that is underway
Jul 13 14:20:22 <wltjr>	fmccor: no but they can't bend their rules either
Jul 13 14:20:30 <fmccor>	They already think they have the business --- why else would they ask us to pick out a check design?
Jul 13 14:20:34 <musikc>	wltjr,  you wouldnt be on the board if the trustees couldnt survive without you? trust me, life goes on and no one is tied by a life line to Gentoo.
Jul 13 14:20:42 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Take your break, we will cover for you ... or do you think we can't ?
Jul 13 14:20:43 <wltjr>	fmccor: so if their rules say all officers must be on file, and all have to be US citizens then?
Jul 13 14:21:16 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, then I resign as president - not as trustee
Jul 13 14:21:16 <wltjr>	musikc: if your saying the foundation would exist without me, possibly, but if it weren't for me making noise, there never would have been an election, much less reinstatement, etc
Jul 13 14:21:19 <musikc>	wltjr, perhaps you would then consider another bank? i know when i traveled to Asia i was happy to see that Citibank had a presence
Jul 13 14:21:36 <wltjr>	musikc: been there, Wells Fargo is one of our last hopes
Jul 13 14:21:48 <fmccor>	I think they asked for two officers --- the secretary and one other.  I provided my signature there if you need it, and Tom must provide his.
Jul 13 14:22:01 <musikc>	wltjr, again i state, gentoo will move on without any one of us. do not fool yourself into thinking it would wither and die. that's ridiculous and a touch bit arrogant.
Jul 13 14:22:04 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, *without* travel to sign paperwork
Jul 13 14:22:05 <wltjr>	musikc: tried Citi and Chase already, we either have to physically go to NM to sign paperwork or look to establish official offices ina nother state
Jul 13 14:22:29 <wltjr>	musikc: the foundation did die, again if it wasn't for me making that known, nothing would have happen
Jul 13 14:22:46 <wltjr>	musikc: the last time the foundation operated as it should was 05, one of it's first years in existence
Jul 13 14:22:48 *	antarus notes that you have no idea what would have happened had you said nothing
Jul 13 14:22:48 <musikc>	wltjr, my reference with Citibank was to point out that there are banks that work in a variety of countries. ive no doubt that the trustees will find the right fit with the right bank.
Jul 13 14:23:03 <fmccor>	musikc, Tom tracked Wells Fargo down based on the fact that they could work without a trip to NM.  And if something in person is needed, tsunam is within walking distance of a branch.
Jul 13 14:23:21 <wltjr>	antarus: I saw what happened from August 07 to January 08
Jul 13 14:24:05 <musikc>	wltjr, your opinion of everyone elses failures is so noted but is a bit harsh to say no one did anything since 2005 as i simply know people who did work between that time.
Jul 13 14:24:06 <fmccor>	musikc, Problem with Citibank is they do not have offices in NM; Wells Fargo covers NM, and everyplace else west of the Missippi, and for some reason Indiana.
Jul 13 14:24:10 <wltjr>	antarus: given the lack of interest in the foundation even to this day, I am not convinced anyone else would have stepped up or said anything, no one cared
Jul 13 14:24:36 <wltjr>	musikc: stuff was done, but doing stuff and doing all that is required to run the foundation properly are not the same
Jul 13 14:24:37 fmccor fmccor|away 
Jul 13 14:24:47 <musikc>	fmccor, tsunam is not within walking distance of NM. he works with me.
Jul 13 14:24:55 <wltjr>	musikc: we got the foundation with no bank account, a revoked charter, and last financial report was from 05
Jul 13 14:25:01 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, Drop it and enjoy your break ... if you come back refreshed, fine, if you consider your position and resign as a trustee, thats fine too.  but first, take a break
Jul 13 14:25:20 <wltjr>	NeddySeagoon: I kinda have been, missed several meetings already
Jul 13 14:25:32 <musikc>	wltjr, you are becoming argumentative and as such i no longer wish to participate in this downward spiral of a conversation. i hope you enjoy your time off, please do not forget to set your .devaway
Jul 13 14:25:52 <fmccor>	musikc, No, he is within walking distance of a Wells Fargo branch, though, and that's enough if they want to see you (at least, that's what tgall indicated)
Jul 13 14:26:01 fmccor fmccor|away 
Jul 13 14:26:04 <wltjr>	musikc: um, I have packages to bump, and things to commit, being away as a trustee has nothing to do with being away as a developer
Jul 13 14:26:08 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, I don't think we are going anywhere with this just now ... chill out away from the Foundation for a month
Jul 13 14:26:21 <wltjr>	musikc: most are interaction hasn't been pleasant for a while, today was abnormal so far
Jul 13 14:26:26 <musikc>	fmccor, ahhhhh... misunderstood. good that a simple office visit to any office is all that is required. :)
Jul 13 14:26:50 <NeddySeagoon>	musikc, but tsunam will need time off his work :)
Jul 13 14:26:51 <wltjr>	musikc: if we have to sign stuff in person, but that doesn't seem to be a requirement at this time
Jul 13 14:27:11 <wltjr>	so far with Wells Fargo we can do it all remotely, no one needs to enter a branch anywhere
Jul 13 14:27:14 <fmccor>	musikc, The problem we were running in to seems to have been that there are few if any banks doing business both on the east coast and New Mexico.
Jul 13 14:27:34 <musikc>	<wltjr> musikc: this stuff has caused me to become ineffective as a trustee, hated as a person, hurt some relationships, kills any technical commit time to gentoo, robs time from my business, and is all making me pretty bitter
Jul 13 14:27:38 <wltjr>	plus few banks want ot open a remote account
Jul 13 14:27:44 <musikc>	wltjr, i thought that message indicated you desired time off period.
Jul 13 14:28:06 <wltjr>	musikc: no, just stating how I feel in my present position
Jul 13 14:28:32 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, take time off and get to grips with your feelings
Jul 13 14:28:41 <wltjr>	musikc: I am a very straight forward person, if I didn't say it, don't assume it, never read anything more into what I am saying then the words themselves
Jul 13 14:28:53 <musikc>	*sigh*
Jul 13 14:28:56 <wltjr>	what I desire is results, time off does not achive that
Jul 13 14:29:20 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, and words are such a poor form of communication
Jul 13 14:29:31 <wltjr>	in what a month we will be technically half way into our year, and what we have accomplished so far is pretty minor IMHO
Jul 13 14:29:31 <musikc>	this is getting pointless. fmccor and NeddySeagoon thank you for the enlightening conversation. ill get back to you regarding the PR task. wltjr i really do hope you do something to relieve yourself of such misery and bitterness.
Jul 13 14:29:57 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, you can run too fast and stumble ... if you are demotivated, take a break
Jul 13 14:29:58 <wltjr>	I said I was done twice already
Jul 13 14:29:58 <fmccor>	wltjr, I think we're done for today.  As for the rest, do what seems best, I guess.
Jul 13 14:30:20 <fmccor>	wltjr, I'll always help any way I can.
Jul 13 14:31:05 <fmccor>	musikc, Thanks again.
Jul 13 14:31:12 <NeddySeagoon>	thanks musikc 
Jul 13 14:31:28 <wltjr>	fmccor: thanks
Jul 13 14:31:56 <fmccor>	wltjr, You are welcome.  Just ask.
Jul 13 14:32:13 <wltjr>	fmccor: it's not a help issue it's a time issue
Jul 13 14:32:23 <wltjr>	time to achieve results
Jul 13 14:33:15 <fmccor>	Understood.
Jul 13 14:33:28 <NeddySeagoon>	wltjr, the two are interchangable while you can still divide the problem 
Jul 13 14:33:38 <wltjr>	time is moot when results are achieved, more time spent, less results, less motivation and interest
Jul 13 14:38:37 <fmccor>	We'll get it done.  Just perhaps not as quickly as we might like.
Jul 13 14:39:09 *	fmccor is now known as fmccor|home
Jul 13 15:03:42 *	Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jul 13 15:03:42 2008
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RE: Gentoo Foundation Inc Trustees - Adjourned August Meeting
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Gentoo Foundation Inc Trustees - Adjourned August Meeting
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Re: Gentoo Foundation Inc Trustees - Adjourned August Meeting
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Re: Gentoo Foundation Inc Trustees - Adjourned August Meeting
-- Matthew Summers; CEO, Liquidus Tech, LLC
Re: Gentoo Foundation Inc Trustees - Adjourned August Meeting
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Re: Gentoo Foundation Inc Trustees - Adjourned August Meeting
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