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Ned Ludd wrote: |
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> This is a pretty long book you wrote. So I'll just say what I think |
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> here. |
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> |
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> No offense but this seems like a crack heads pipe dream and would |
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> probably not be a wise use of funds. Dump 300k in hardware, developer |
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> training, books, etc and we will get a lot more accomplished that make |
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> Gentoo itself better. Raise 300k and get us all together and you will |
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> see 250 people with hangovers and a small handful projects that come |
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> out of it in the end. SoC will probably of proved to be more successful |
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> (end results) for a lot cheaper. |
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|
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You call it a crack heads pipe dream. But I say this: why are we the only |
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major distribution (or, heck, one of the few major open source projects) |
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that does nothing to get its contributors together offline? How can you |
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have a real community whose main interaction is bitching at each other via a |
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puny mailing list? That's not *my* idea of a community. |
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|
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That's what it comes down to. I'm standing as a trustee, because this is |
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something I want to change. |
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|
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Best regards, |
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Stu |
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-- |
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|
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PS: Here's the long argument if anyone's interested. |
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|
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Does that mean that things like DebConf, GUADEC, aKademy, and so on, are |
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also a crack head's pipe dream? These things happen, and when you add up |
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how much money is spent on events like these - where hundreds of folks |
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travel from around the world to be in the same place at the same time - |
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you'll be looking at probably the same amount of money as a Gentoo |
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conference will cost. |
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|
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300K in hardware's not going to make Gentoo better. I'm sure there are |
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folks out there who could use better hardware than what they have; we all |
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want better hardware ;-) But, ultimately, it's the time each individual |
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developer can dedicate to working on Gentoo that makes the difference. |
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Extra / faster hardware can help by speeding up tasks, but it only helps so far. |
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|
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You can't dump 300K of hardware on infra either. Sure, infra needs more |
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money than it currently has - that's indisputable - but lots of extra |
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centrally-hosted hardware will just mean more boxes that waiting for the |
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very understaffed infra team to turn their attention to them. It already |
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takes weeks for infra to get things done, and that's not always for lack of |
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hardware. (This isn't an attack on infra; it's simply an observed fact). |
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|
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300K will buy you a lot of books, but do you need it? Has anyone tried |
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talking to the big publishers, to see if we can arrange discounts on buying |
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books (and maybe getting copies for free)? |
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|
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Developer training ... who's going to train Gentoo developers? The only |
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folks who are supposed to be more expert than us are $UPSTREAM, most of who |
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we couldn't buy training from if we wanted to. Sure, we could pay for |
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general C, C++, Python, PHP, Ruby et al training, but do we really need to? |
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If there's such a skills shortage atm amongst Gentoo developers, how did |
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they get to be Gentoo developers? ;-) Where will you buy PHP training from |
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for me? There isn't anywhere that you can. Is it fair that I won't get any |
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money from you, but others will? |
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|
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How are you going to decide who to spend the money on? Will you agree to |
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buy every member of the web-apps team shiny OS X boxes, and pay for Windows |
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licenses for us all? After all, our work enables folks to put something |
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useful on Gentoo-based web servers. From a QA point of view, we really |
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should be testing all web-based packages against the top three browsers (IE, |
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Firefox on Windows, and Safari). |
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|
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I believe that the difference between our point of view is that I think you |
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are measuring "end results" in terms of lines of code. X packages, Y |
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ebuilds, Z turn-around time. That sort of thing. I'm looking at the |
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intangibles, such as the effect that a fragmented and polarised group is |
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having on moving the distro forward, and on general morale. I look at other |
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opensource projects that I'm involved with, and I see that face to face |
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contact breaks down communication barriers. It's not a silver bullet, but |
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social interaction is an important part of a community, and it's something |
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that Gentoo sorely lacks. Having folks get to know each other offline will |
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help break down those barriers. I know it has here in the UK, amongst those |
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who have attended one of the annual UK meets. |
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|
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300K sounds like a lot of money (especially if you have to raise it), but in |
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reality it's not. It's the annual turnover of a small business. It's the |
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annual cost of a small server cluster with a third-party hosting service. |
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At current exchange rates, 300K US is only 169K sterling. That won't even |
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buy you a house in many UK cities. |
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|
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300K is a figure you've plucked out of the air. No-one actually knows how |
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much this sort of event will cost - and my proposal |
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|
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Another point to consider. How are you going to raise any substantial sum |
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of money if you don't have clear targets to focus potential doners on? We |
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already say "Hi, we're Gentoo, donate to us" today, and the last available |
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financial report speaks volumes for how well that's working out [1]. |
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|
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I can't speak for US TV, but with UK TV, it's worth taking a bit of time to |
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watch the way that charities advertise. Back in the 70's and early 80's, |
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before the first Ethiopian famine appeals, they used to advertise in general |
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terms. "Hi, we're foo, and we help blah. Please give us some cash." |
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Today, the advertising is very focused, very personalised. "Hi, this is |
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so-and-so village. X pounds a month will give them, and countless villages |
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like them, clean water for the very first time." Or try applying for money |
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from any sort of funding body. |
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|
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[1] http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/2005q4.xml |
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|
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Best regards, |
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Stu |
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|
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> |
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> On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 20:50 +0100, Stuart Herbert wrote: |
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>> Ned Ludd wrote: |
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>>> What are some of the things you would do to try and |
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>>> accomplish this goal? |
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>> In order to raise money, we need a budget - a target to focus folks on. The |
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>> budget depends on where we hold the event, when, and what we do at the |
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>> event. We need to tackle that, and build a ballpark figure. It also |
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>> depends on how many are attending, and whether or not everyone needs |
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>> financial assistance to attend. There's a lot to do there - including |
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>> convincing Gentoo devs to attend (not taking that for granted!) - we'll need |
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>> to build a team to handle the work between us, make sure it's transparent, |
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>> and that we're planning an event that Gentoo devs will want to be part of. |
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>> There are going to be folks in the wider Gentoo community who can help make |
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>> this happen - we'll be looking to engage them, and get them involved too. |
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>> We're going to need folks on the ground in different countries, because part |
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>> of the fundraising will probably require meeting donors face to face. |
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>> |
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>> Another important point, before we can set a budget, is scope. Should this |
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>> be a dev-only event, or should it also include something for Gentoo users |
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>> too? That would change the whole dynamic; the size & content would change, |
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>> the overall budget would change, and we could use attendee charges to help |
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>> assist Gentoo devs attending. |
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>> |
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>> When it comes to assisting devs ... what are the rules to qualify for |
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>> assistance? Are they means-tested? Do they depend on what you do for |
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>> Gentoo, or how long you have been a dev? Should we run an 'adopt a dev' |
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>> sponsorship campaign, where we ask users to donate to assist a named dev? |
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>> Is there another assistance scheme we could use instead? |
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>> |
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>> I am making a fundamental assumption here that we should be assisting devs, |
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>> so that they can attend. That needs looking at. Maybe we don't actually |
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>> need to do so. Maybe we shouldn't be doing so. I think we should, but |
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>> there hasn't been any sort of debate about this. |
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>> |
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>> Once we have our estimated budget, we need to raise the money. Here, there |
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>> are issues to sort out. I'm unclear about the financial (and, tbh, legal) |
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>> situation of the Foundation, and I doubt I'm the only one. Even before we |
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>> start figuring out how to raise the money, we need to ensure that the |
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>> Foundation has the capability of handling the money, and the financial |
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>> controls in place to ensure that the money does not get mis-appropriated. |
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>> |
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>> Actually raising the money ... we need to identify different sources of |
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>> money, and pursue the right strategy for each source. Some sources include: |
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>> |
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>> - our users, |
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>> - companies that make money from Gentoo, |
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>> - companies that use Gentoo, |
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>> - the wider Linux community, who like our docs and our forums and |
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>> our willingness to help folks from other distros |
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>> - the media, and other folks who have things they could sell to |
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>> folks @ the conference |
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>> - foundations and trusts that exist to donate money to appropriate |
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>> causes |
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>> - local and national governments and their agencies |
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>> - folks who don't use Linux at all |
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>> |
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>> I'm sure that there are more that we can find. |
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>> |
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>> We could just do what the local hospital does ... we put a big |
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>> target-o-meter in a prominent place, and appeal to people's conscience to |
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>> help it move up from zero to what we need. Has the advantage of being a |
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>> clear and easy-to-digest concept to sell. |
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>> |
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>> Companies are traditionally tackled through the "sponsorship" approach. We |
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>> could just hope that companies sponsor our conference out of the goodness of |
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>> their hearts - it's worked for the UK conferences to date :) - but a more |
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>> successful approach would be to create a valuable package for a sponsor to |
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>> buy into. When I say "package", I'm not talking software. I'm essentially |
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>> talking marketing - taking their currency in exchange for giving them value |
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>> in return. It'll take us numerous iterations to get this one right, but |
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>> longer-term it'll be a more successful approach than simply handing round |
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>> the begging bowl. |
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>> |
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>> The Foundation's legal status could have a bearing on the fundraising. |
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>> We'll need advice on exactly where we can accept money from, and in what |
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>> amounts. I know Freenode are affected by this; at this moment in time, I |
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>> don't know whether we are also affected by this or not. It's worth asking |
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>> the question of whether we should organise this directly through the |
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>> Foundation, or whether a separate legal entity would be more appropriate. |
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>> |
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>> Speaking of which ... simply getting folks worldwide to donate to the |
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>> US-based Foundation misses out on some sources of funding. The UK (for one) |
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>> runs a scheme called Gift Aid, where tax can be reclaimed on money donated |
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>> to UK charities. Although it would create an administration overhead, |
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>> establishing a world-wide network of local Gentoo Foundations would |
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>> longer-term increase our ability to raise money. Such a network would also |
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>> allow us to cast a wider net, and apply for funding from sources within each |
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>> country, and would also make it easier for local businesses to donate to |
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>> their national Gentoo charity / not for profit. |
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>> |
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>> Let me sell that idea another way. Imagine going to www.gentoo.org/donate/, |
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>> and being presented with a form for you to donate money. The first page, |
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>> there would be a dropdown box, allowing you to indicate which country you |
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>> reside in. When you select your country, we would take you to a second |
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>> page, which would be a localised donation form for your country, which would |
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>> take advantage of whatever tax breaks your country offered. We make sure |
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>> that the money goes into your country's Gentoo bank account, where the local |
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>> trustees become responsible for it. |
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>> |
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>> Establishing this local charity network is a massive undertaking, and it's |
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>> unlikely to be in place in time for the 2007 conference. But it's worth |
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>> doing in the longer term, not only because we can raise more money than by |
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>> having a distant Foundation in the U.S., but also because a local charity |
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>> can also do local educational things with Gentoo - and that will keep |
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>> bringing in new blood to our ranks. It's not just about the money - it's |
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>> about building a global organisation to take Gentoo from the Internet and |
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>> into local communities. And without having to try and establish a |
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>> commercial arm, to compete with the other distros. We remain a community |
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>> distro, and we get to widen our community far beyond the propeller head ranks. |
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>> |
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>> To increase the chance of success, we need Gentoo's PR machine fixing (work |
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>> has started on that today, interested volunteers should knock on frilling's |
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>> door), and that will probably have a knock-on effect on www.g.o's homepage. |
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>> We need to make Gentoo more accessible to the folks in the media, and we |
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>> need to improve the understanding that we are truly a community distro, and |
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>> all that being a community distro means. We need a PR machine that can |
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>> create the right associations in people's minds, so that they feel more |
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>> inclined to part with their money. We need a PR machine to "sell" Gentoo as |
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>> a concept, and as a movement. |
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>> |
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>> One thing I haven't done yet is get in touch with the organisers of other |
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>> events. There are plenty of people who have been successfully running |
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>> international conferences for years; their experience and advice will help |
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>> us a lot too. |
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>> |
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>> Why do I think I'm the right person to make this happen? (You haven't |
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>> asked, but it seems appropriate to include here). First, I'm proposing to |
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>> act when no-one else is. My apologies if I've missed it, but I'm not aware |
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>> of any existing trustee, or any candidate for this year's election, who is |
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>> proposing that we do this. From other open-source projects that I'm |
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>> involved with, I've seen first-hand that there is no substitute for folks |
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>> having met and spent time with each other to resolve communication problems. |
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>> |
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>> I've never run a legally-formed charity, but I have repeated experience of |
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>> setting up and running volunteer organisations, and departments and teams |
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>> within commercial organisations spanning back 14 years. I have run my own |
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>> business. My roots are in free software. I've been maintaining GPL'd |
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>> software since 1994; first of which was to create dialog-0.4 specifically |
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>> for Slackware 2.0.1. (No, this does not mean that I'll be accepting bugs |
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>> against dialog ;-) dialog is the tool that manages the text-based UI for |
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>> nearly all Linux text-based installers; lxdialog included in the kernel is |
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>> derived from it. |
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>> |
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>> I setup the successful Gentoo UK conference, which has now been running for |
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>> three years. I'd like to now take things to the next level, and create a |
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>> world-wide conference for all our devs. |
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>> |
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>> I really believe that we can create an international conference - *if* we |
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>> want it enough - and make it a recurring event. |
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>> |
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>> Best regards, |
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>> Stu |
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|
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|
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-- |
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Stuart Herbert stuart@g.o |
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Gentoo Developer http://www.gentoo.org/ |
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http://blog.stuartherbert.com/ |
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|
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GnuPG key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu |
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Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319 C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C |
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-- |