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On 1/16/08, John Alberts <john.m.alberts@×××××.com> wrote: |
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> > There was talk of a vote on -core. |
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> Unfortunately, it's completely private, so the community has no idea what is |
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> being discussed. I think this is the real problem. Lack of communication. |
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> Lack of transparency. -core should at least be read only and archived for |
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> users to see what's going on. |
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|
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I'm pretty sure there is a lot of talk here, a lot of talk on the |
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forums, on -project, and elsewhere. I'm taking my time to try to |
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update you on what the goings on are. If it wasn't on -core it would |
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be on a private IRC channel or in privmsg. Sometimes you just need a |
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private space to hash out ideas. |
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|
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> |
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> With the lack of communication and updates on the Gentoo front page and lack |
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> of GWN releases, and a missed 2007.1 release, users get the impression that |
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> nothing is happening and things must be declining. Happy Gentoo users get |
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|
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Yes and I worked hard to get news items on the front page and look, |
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there they are. |
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No news is good news, no? :) |
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|
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> outraged because this wonderful distribution *seems* to be withering away |
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> because of the lack of transparency and communication. When in fact, as |
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> many have pointed out, new and updated ebuilds are put in portage every day. |
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> Lot's of devs are constantly at work in the background keeping things |
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> going, but there's a lack of people to keep the community informed properly. |
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> |
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|
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Yes well as you noted writing news and project updates is boring and |
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so it doesn't get done. |
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Are you volunteering? :) |
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|
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> I don't know any of the devs personally, and I'm not a dev, but I hate |
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> seeing some of these comments coming through putting all of this blame on |
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> the devs. They are volunteers, doing what they enjoy, and they'll be doing |
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> it for as long as it makes him/her happy. |
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> |
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> I support bringing drobbins back because my hope is that he will help |
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> implement the needed direction and transparency that Gentoo needs to |
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> succeed; however, drobbins needs to elaborate on what his intentions are and |
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> how he plans to implement these changes before any decision is made. I |
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> would hope that he joins this discussion to help provide a good solution for |
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> everyone. |
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> |
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> John Alberts |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> On Jan 16, 2008 5:43 PM, Alec Warner <antarus@g.o> wrote: |
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> > |
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> > On 1/16/08, James Laslavic <squarebottle@×××××.com> wrote: |
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> > |
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> > > A lot of people are talking about how "There shouldn't just be one |
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> > > person!" Well, couple things. |
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> > > |
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> > > The biggest issue that these people have forgotten is that as it is |
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> > > right now, there is only one trustee. All the others have retired or |
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> > > been AWOL for a while now, and the same goes for the rest of the |
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> > > foundation, pretty much. |
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> > |
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> > If you assume no one is working on stuff you are wrong and there are |
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> > at least three folks actively working to figure out what our options |
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> > are (and there is me, annoying the hell out of them to make sure we |
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> > are making progress). |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > And if being democratic is the big goal, then don't forget that the |
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> > > community overwhelmingly supports his return. |
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> > |
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> > You have provided no metric. All I know is that a subset of folks |
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> > want him back. |
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> > (not that we are ignoring that subset, but that doesn't mean they |
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> > represent everyone). |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > If you want to create a system of checks and balances, then great! Bring |
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> > > your ideas to the table when we have enough people showing up to pass |
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> > > this kind of legislation! But right now, we've got to face the facts: |
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> > > |
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> > > 1) Things are not getting done. |
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> > > 2) Gentoo is losing developers. |
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> > > 3) Potential developers are choosing not to join. |
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> > |
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> > 2 and 3 are both incorrect IMHO. We don't have enough recruiters to |
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> > recruit all the folks that want to be devs; so that nixes 3. I don't |
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> > have the numbers to refute 2 in front of me. |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > 4) The current Gentoo foundation has had several months to fix all the |
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> > > above. |
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> > |
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> > Chris said he faxed paperwork to NM and that this was a surprise; |
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> > certainly I'm not happy with the progress made here and there are |
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> > folks who are working on it. |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > 5) Daniel Robbins offering to come back is not happening out of the blue |
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> > > because "he feels like he wants power," but is happening in response to |
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> > > the dire situation painted by the above issues. |
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> > > |
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> > > There are developers who want to see him return, and there are |
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> > > developers that don't. This is normal. However, take a look at the |
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> > > numbers. The people that stayed when he left will likely consist of |
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> > > people that don't want to see him return because, after all, the reason |
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> > > they didn't leave with him is because they weren't on his side then. As |
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> > > such, it's not really very representative of anything, as any pollster |
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> > > or statistician can tell you. When you look at the entire Gentoo |
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> > > community though including all the developers that left back then and |
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> > > all the developers that do not want to join the current Gentoo, it |
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> > > overwhelmingly supports Daniel Robbins' return. |
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> > |
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> > Again, overwhelmingly is a strong term ;) |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > I wish I could see some people be mature and say, "You know, I |
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> > > personally don't think this is the best idea, but the community seems to |
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> > > think it knows better, so I'm not going to try to block the whole |
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> > > community." |
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> > |
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> > I don't think many devs actually outright want to say no. Most devs |
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> > want more concrete terms (and they are working on getting them from |
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> > Daniel). |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > Also note that technically, Daniel Robbins already owns all the |
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> > > trademarks and stuff again because when the charter was revoked, all |
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> > > contracts and stuff (such as the transfer of rights) was legally |
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> > > nullified. He's pretty much just being polite by asking. |
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> > |
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> > It's false because as far as I'm aware the Foundation never owned any |
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> > trademarks and the copyrights for most code in it's present form is |
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> > still owned by the author (which is not Daniel for the vast majority |
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> > of code in the tree today). |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > In any case, whatever you believe should happen, we can all agree that a |
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> > > decision must be reached somehow. Debate is healthy, but we need a way |
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> > > of officially deciding what will happen. Perhaps an organized election? |
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> > > I mean, how do you want to do this? It's got to be done sometime (unless |
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> > > you're trying to filibuster all this of course, which would just be |
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> lame). |
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> > |
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> > There was talk of a vote on -core. I think the current decision is |
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> > that we need to investigate the alternatives before we can vote on |
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> > them; hence we are getting our paperwork in order to get advice from |
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> > our legal team. |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > Sincerely, |
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> > > Square Bottle |
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> > > www.visualflavor.org |
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> > > |
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> > > |
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> > > gibbonsr-ml@××××××××××××××××××.com wrote: |
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> > > > Why does one person have to be the Dictator. We need a single |
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> governing |
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> > > > body, but `body` doesn't have to mean one person |
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> > > > |
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> > > > Have the council do what they do, manage the devs, but have the |
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> council |
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> > > > report the foudnation. Foundation members should be assigned areas |
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> and |
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> > > > required to attend everything with area, basically a part of that |
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> > > > board. So the council actually has one or two members in the |
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> > > > foundation, the userrel actually has one or two members in the |
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> > > > foundation. They report to the overall group what is going on in |
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> gentoo. |
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> > > > |
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> > > > If Daniel wants the join the foundation / trustee's, then great, let |
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> him |
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> > > > do it from there with a team of people. |
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> > > > |
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> > > > |
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> > > > ----- Original Message ----- |
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> > > > From: "Senno During" <senno.during@×××××.com> |
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> > > > To: gentoo-nfp@l.g.o |
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> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:44:33 PM (GMT-0600) |
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> America/Chicago |
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> > > > Subject: Re: [gentoo-nfp] drobbins, leadership, etc. |
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> > > > |
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> > > > this is my feeling too. So far drobbins has given an option. i have |
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> > > > heard good things about it, and bad things about it. Though, no |
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> > > > alternative is known to me. i hope to hear about one soon! |
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> > > > |
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> > > > i also believe there will always be devs/users (are pretty important |
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> > > > too i think!) that are not going to be happy with the choice that is |
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> > > > going to be made. |
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> > > > |
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> > > > i do feel that Gentoo, currently, needs a sort of dictator, like Linux |
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> > > > with Torvalds. Of course, you always hope for the right choice and |
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> right |
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> > > > ideas from the leader then. But no decisions being made by a group, |
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> just to |
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> > > > prevent a dictator style, doesn't sound right to me either. |
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> > > > |
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> > > > Senno During |
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> > > > |
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> > > > On Jan 16, 2008 11:09 PM, Sergey Kuleshov <svyatogor@×××××.com> wrote: |
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> > > > > I'd second almost everything Caleb said. I do feel, that Daniel |
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> should |
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> > > > > come back. And if he does I'll try to come back to the developers |
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> > > > > (which I left some time ago). not that I think this will make any |
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> > > > > difference, but just wanted to express my opinion as well. |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > > and when I hear peoples' concerns about handing him control of |
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> Gentoo, |
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> > > > > I have only one question in return - any better options? cause what |
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> we |
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> > > > > have now proved to be quite a failure. |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > > On Jan 16, 2008 10:07 PM, |
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> <gibbonsr-ml@××××××××××××××××××.com> wrote: |
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> > > > > > That WooHoo feeling seems to be held by most, Honestly at first i |
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> > > > was there |
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> > > > > > also. |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > But now that I've calmed down, and started reading through |
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> > > > everything I do |
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> > > > > > not share the feeling. Do I think Daniel can help? Yes. Should |
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> we |
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> > > > accept |
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> > > > > > his current offer by Friday? No. Why? Many reasons, some having |
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> > > > to do with |
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> > > > > > the fact we just don't know enough. Another one is he is wanted |
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> > > > > > unquestionable control ... which is dangerous to give to anybody, |
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> > > > no matter |
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> > > > > > how great the man once was. Would we give JFK or Lincoln |
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> complete |
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> > > > control |
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> > > > > > of the US, no checks, no balances .. no. (sorry to the non-us |
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> > > > citizens for |
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> > > > > > that example, best I could come up with in such sort notice). |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > I know Daniel can help, but I also believe anybody who is |
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> committed |
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> > > > enough |
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> > > > > > can help. Somebody needs to take this personal, and take it as a |
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> > > > part-time |
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> > > > > > job and execute on actions, and be held accountable for what they |
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> > > > did or |
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> > > > > > didn't do. |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > The past is the past, both good and bad. I think if Daniel would |
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> > > > sit down |
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> > > > > > with the Foundation, trustee, council and even allow others to |
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> join and |
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> > > > > > listen (not speak, but listen) and then hash out a set of |
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> > > > guidelines .. then |
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> > > > > > great. But we shouldn't accept him blindly and unconditionally |
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> at this |
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> > > > > > point in time. If Daniel doesn't want to sit down and talk this |
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> > > > out, then |
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> > > > > > he doesn't need to be back. |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- |
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> > > > > > From: "John Alberts" < john.m.alberts@×××××.com> |
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> > > > > > To: "Caleb Cushing" <xenoterracide@×××××.com> |
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> > > > > > Cc: gentoo-nfp@l.g.o |
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> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:54:00 PM (GMT-0600) |
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> America/Chicago |
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> > > > > > Subject: Re: [gentoo-nfp] drobbins, leadership, etc. |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > It might be prudent to back up your claims, conclusions, and |
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> > > > suggestion with |
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> > > > > > some type of fact. I'm not saying I disagree or agree with you, |
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> but |
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> > > > > > basically, all you said was "WooHoo! Bring back Robbins!" |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > John Alberts |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > On Jan 16, 2008 3:43 PM, Caleb Cushing <xenoterracide@×××××.com > |
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> wrote: |
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> > > > > > > just joining the conversation. I vote to bring drobbins back. |
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> > > > Even though |
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> > > > > > i as |
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> > > > > > > a user/admin and potential future developer, have no vote. |
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> > > > > > > |
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> > > > > > > I would also like to note that under the current leadership, of |
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> > > > which I |
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> > > > > > have |
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> > > > > > > no confidence, I have no desire to be a gentoo developer. were |
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> this |
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> > > > > > > leadership to change and with some more improvement of my own |
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> > > > skills I |
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> > > > > > would |
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> > > > > > > consider it. I of course do not believe this decision is based |
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> on |
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> > > > me, and |
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> > > > > > am |
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> > > > > > > not attempting to inflate my own worth. but am merely pointing |
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> > > > out that I |
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> > > > > > may |
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> > > > > > > not be the only person who feels this way. |
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> > > > > > > -- |
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> > > > > > > Caleb Cushing |
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> > > > > > > |
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> > > > > > > PGP keys available on key server |
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> > > > > > > wwwkeys.us.pgp.net |
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> > > > > > > |
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> > > > > > > Due to low Internet availability I may not check |
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> > > > > > > my email more than once a week, and thus cannot |
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> > > > > > > guarantee a response time. |
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> > > > > > > |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > > -- |
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> > > > > > Ryan Gibbons |
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> > > > > > 817.657.1780 |
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> > > > > > gibbonsr@××××××××××××××××××.com |
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> > > > > > |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > > -- |
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> > > > > Sergey Kuleshov < svyatogor@×××××.com> |
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> > > > > Jabber: svyatogor@×××××.com |
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> > > > > ICQ: 158439855 |
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> > > > > -- |
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> > > > > gentoo-nfp@l.g.o mailing list |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > > |
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> > > > -- |
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> > > > gentoo-nfp@l.g.o mailing list |
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> > > > |
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> > > > |
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> > > > |
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> > > > -- |
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> > > > Ryan Gibbons |
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> > > > 817.657.1780 |
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> > > > gibbonsr@××××××××××××××××××.com |
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> > > -- |
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> > > gentoo-nfp@l.g.o mailing list |
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> > > |
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> > > |
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> > -- |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > gentoo-nfp@l.g.o mailing list |
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> > |
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> > |
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> |
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> |
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-- |
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gentoo-nfp@l.g.o mailing list |