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On Thu, 2011-03-24 at 09:03 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 2:55 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. |
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> <wlt@××××××××××××××××.com> wrote: |
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> > Thats more about being able to get Gentoo vendor certified. Some |
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> > corporations will only go with software the vendor supports or is |
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> > certified against. |
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> |
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> I think that what you're getting at is that Gentoo isn't properly |
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> organized to be like Canonical. |
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Not at all, Canonical is a for profit entity. I would like to see Gentoo |
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more organize like FreeBSD and Debian, which are NPOs. |
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> I think we need to be realistic about what Gentoo is. I'd love to see |
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> Gentoo grow. I'd love to see Gentoo better able to fund its |
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> development. However, right now that is going to basically consist of |
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> having better access to hardware. I think it is unlikely that we are |
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> going to be in a place where a substantial number of devs are paid |
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> full-time to be devs. |
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|
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There have been substantial offers in the past from major companies. If |
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Gentoo had a proper structure, funding would be the least of the |
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problems. |
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|
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> The thing Canonical has that Gentoo doesn't is an infusion of capital. |
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> That automatically comes with strong central governance, since nobody |
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> invests millions of dollars without making sure it is being |
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> well-spent. |
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Again totally different entity, but FreeBSD and Debian do not seem to |
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have such capitalization problems. |
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> So, while I agree that you're describing an ideal-state (sort of - |
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> there might be many contributors to Gentoo who wouldn't want to be |
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> part of a "Canonical"), I think we need to aim first for continual |
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> improvement even if it falls short of perfection. |
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Thus I equate it more to like the RedCross, mix of paid employees, and |
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an even larger number of volunteers. Others prefer like the Mozilla |
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approach, for profit corporation over NPO. However that is not the only |
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way to go about such things. Gentoo is much better off remaining a NPO, |
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and not having any parent company or subsidiaries. |
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|
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> I do think that directors/trustees/etc are important to have, even if |
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> perhaps they are not a legal necessity. Gentoo is community-driven, |
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> so even if dictatorship is more "efficient" it probably isn't a good |
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> fit. Perhaps that means we won't sell as many units as Canonical, and |
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> perhaps we just need to live with that. |
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Yes the problem is focus has only been on trustees/board members, and |
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not officers. The law requires officers, and its part of the normal |
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structure of any business, for profit or not. Just the same its really |
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good to have a board in addition to officers, providing there is enough |
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people. |
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> As Mike said, when interest is limited you have to do what you can |
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> with what you have. Sure, we can argue about whether it is "good |
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> enough" but that doesn't change anything. If elected I expect to have |
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> to get my hands dirty, and I don't mind doing so (was just reading up |
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> on NM/IRS law last night). |
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|
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I am glad someone is reading those documents :) |
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|
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> Many hands make for light work, but we |
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> don't have many hands, so we just need to do what we can with what we |
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> have. In the end we aren't collecting a paycheck and can't afford to |
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> start writing them. |
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Yes I realize the amount of work and lack of hands. Its why I was not |
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happy before to run into obstacles, and people holding things back. Its |
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why we need to make things easier on each other and not harder. |
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That said you might be surprised what a few can do vs many at times. I |
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was getting quite allot done. With the help of other but the rest of the |
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team should admit that I was a driving force at the time. It was me who |
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got the Foundation elections going again, and everything else back in |
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2008 ;) |
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> Having been involved with other types of non-profits (churches) I do |
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> want to also caution about something that can happen when well-meaning |
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> people try to solve these kinds of issues in the wrong way. I've been |
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> in churches that were highly volunteer-driven, and they had enough |
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> labor to get the job done. Then I've seen them become successful, get |
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> money, start paying professionals, and start having serious problems. |
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|
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Well Gentoo has serious problems as is, sure it could be worse, but |
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could be better just the same. |
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> When the balance starts shifting towards paid labor, then volunteers |
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> can feel left out (they aren't around for the Tues 10AM planning |
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> meeting or whatever), and they can move on to other places where they |
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> feel like they have more impact. That leads to more demand for paid |
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> staff, and now the budget is taxed. Your big volunteers tend to |
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> correlate with your big financial contributors (they're the ones who |
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> care), and as they leave your budget is attacked on both ends. The |
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> result can be a really big mess. |
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Just to be clear, I have no interest in getting people paid to do Gentoo |
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development. That was my interest long ago, but just about anyone I was |
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seeking to get paid. Was acting like I wanted to pay myself. Which I |
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made to sure to remove provisions in the bylaws that allow officers to |
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pay themselves. Also that no one can be on the board if they have a |
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financial interest in Gentoo. Seeking to profit from being on the board. |
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> This doesn't happen to a business that started out top-down and grew |
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> top-down with a big budget organically. The two types of operations |
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> are fundamentally different in makeup and dynamics even if an org |
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> chart for either can look similar. |
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Actually Gentoo did start out as a for profit and then became a NPO. |
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Gentoo Technologies was NOT a NPO :) |
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> There is no reason that something similar couldn't happen here. |
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> Gentoo is a community-driven distro, and we need to keep the community |
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> healthy above all else. |
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Yes, and long ago I was accused of harming said community. Which after |
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which more harm came from inaction, than anything I was doing at the |
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time. The lack of activity on the -nfp mailing list is a direct result. |
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|
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-- |
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William L. Thomson Jr. |
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Obsidian-Studios, Inc. |
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http://www.obsidian-studios.com |