1 |
William L. Thomson Jr. wrote: |
2 |
> On Sat, 2008-05-24 at 17:59 -0400, Richard Freeman wrote: |
3 |
>> I'm not going to reply to anything specific in this thread, |
4 |
> |
5 |
> Then start a new one. This thread exists to get something done. Not to |
6 |
> air everyone opinions, thoughts, etc wrt the foundation as a whole. |
7 |
|
8 |
Well Richard opinion goes quite in another direction about that proposal |
9 |
|
10 |
>> As a Gentoo user, I could really care less whether Gentoo holds any |
11 |
>> tangible assets. As long as there is a server to rsync off of I'm good |
12 |
>> to go - and there are lots of people out there willing to contribute |
13 |
>> bandwidth because it is for a good cause. |
14 |
|
15 |
> Ok, well there are allot of users interested in release media. |
16 |
|
17 |
They'll help getting it done, either by doing themselves or supporting |
18 |
people doing it because they find the thing interesting. |
19 |
|
20 |
> So your thoughts there? Or what about at an event? |
21 |
|
22 |
Get someone sponsoring it. |
23 |
|
24 |
> Ever been by a Gentoo booth compared to others? Like say FreeBSD? |
25 |
|
26 |
Say FFmpeg's one? |
27 |
|
28 |
> And those rsync servers and bandwidth cost $. |
29 |
|
30 |
Kindly provided by privates and organizations using Gentoo. |
31 |
|
32 |
> |
33 |
>> As a Gentoo user, I'd rather see enthusiastic volunteer developers who |
34 |
>> are happy to contribute, than to see Gentoo turn into some kind of |
35 |
>> corporate atmosphere where those who pay get the features they need (a |
36 |
>> la most commercial distros). Sure, it might be a non-profit on paper, |
37 |
>> but large non-profits tend to be indistinguishable from commercial |
38 |
>> enterprises - neither is really grass-roots. |
39 |
> |
40 |
> Let's be quick to think the worst, never the best. Your thoughts ensure |
41 |
> Gentoo will never be certified on any hardware. We will have no vendor |
42 |
> relationships. That we will always be a grass roots hobbyist efforts. |
43 |
|
44 |
Non-sequitur. |
45 |
|
46 |
> What does that say to users that run Gentoo in business and depend on it |
47 |
> daily? There are countless big and small business depending on and |
48 |
> running Gentoo. Guess those users don't matter. |
49 |
|
50 |
Non-sequitur again. |
51 |
|
52 |
>> As a Gentoo user, I'd like devs to listen to my ideas, but I recognize |
53 |
>> that I'm getting far more out of Gentoo than I'm putting into it. |
54 |
> |
55 |
> But devs do not have to listen to users. |
56 |
|
57 |
Why should they? Ah, well, because we are reasonable people, open to |
58 |
feedback and treasuring the help others give us. |
59 |
|
60 |
> At this point users have little to no representation or say in anything |
61 |
> that isn't relayed or acted upon by a dev that is interested or cares |
62 |
> about the users point of view. |
63 |
|
64 |
And that is perfectly fine. We are all users before developers, we are |
65 |
doing lots of wonderful stuff since each of us tries to solve his |
66 |
problems and by doing that solves others' as well. Give and take back 100x. |
67 |
|
68 |
> That's providing devs are even available, on irc, email, etc for users |
69 |
> to interact with. Some are only around to commit code and work bugs. |
70 |
|
71 |
So? |
72 |
|
73 |
> Which bugs and any direct emails are the only contact they have with |
74 |
> users. |
75 |
|
76 |
Again, nothing problematic here. |
77 |
|
78 |
>> Frankly I'm amazed that so many folks put in so much time to make this |
79 |
>> distro really great to run - and I don't have to pay a dime for it! So, |
80 |
>> when I want to have things my own way, I don't really expect anybody to |
81 |
>> bow to my needs. I think that devs should listen to the collective will |
82 |
>> of the users because it is the right thing to do - not because the users |
83 |
>> should hold any power over them. |
84 |
> |
85 |
> Well we get donations and contributions from users. In fact several of |
86 |
> our sponsors are sponsors because they are also users. So if we have no |
87 |
> users, and we need more gear, bandwidth, etc for you to have fun |
88 |
> committing code. Who will provide that? It's a fine balance, like most |
89 |
> things in life. |
90 |
|
91 |
We have users because we are the best for their needs and they want us |
92 |
to be around. Chicken and egg problem solved. |
93 |
|
94 |
>> I think that Gentoo should be run by a group of volunteers who are |
95 |
>> accountable to the volunteers that contribute (whether staff or devs). |
96 |
> |
97 |
> Ok, so I guess me being on the board. I am no longer a dev, or a user. |
98 |
> Nor am I am volunteer. I guess I am going to get paid at some point? |
99 |
|
100 |
No, you should not exist. |
101 |
|
102 |
>> I'd rather not have a foundation with power over trademark, assets, etc, |
103 |
>> threatening to pull the plug or force a fork if the devs or their |
104 |
>> elected leadership don't fall in line over some controversy. |
105 |
> |
106 |
> That is very far fetched and completely negative. |
107 |
|
108 |
Strong counteraction from to a strong opinion. |
109 |
|
110 |
>> As long as |
111 |
>> the Foundation and the Council have a common constituency I'm not too |
112 |
>> concerned about this happening, but when the constituencies are |
113 |
>> different there is the potential for conflict. |
114 |
> |
115 |
> There is only conflict if the foundation overstepped it's bounds. Which |
116 |
> would not and will not happen. If we could ever make progress in the |
117 |
> bylaws we could stipulate such things. Worse case have means for |
118 |
> arbitration if there was some issue or etc. But the two will never have |
119 |
> equal authority over the same matter. |
120 |
|
121 |
Again what the council received as proposal could be interpreted in a |
122 |
quite grim way. |
123 |
|
124 |
>> Personally, I'm not too concerned that Gentoo depends on our sponsors. |
125 |
> |
126 |
> Sure because they are there. If we lost one, and you could not commit |
127 |
> code, or go to g.o, or etc. Then I think you and many others would care. |
128 |
> Allot, and very quickly. |
129 |
|
130 |
Then we'll find solutions. |
131 |
|
132 |
>> I contribute to Gentoo because it is the right thing to do and I'm able |
133 |
>> to give back a little of what I'm getting. I suspect most who sponsor |
134 |
>> open source projects in various ways do so for the same reason. |
135 |
> |
136 |
> Maybe you should look into the reasoning behind each of our sponsors. |
137 |
> Why they are sponsors I have been looking into that with little success. |
138 |
> However there are some that are sponsors only because Gentoo devs work |
139 |
> there. When that is no longer the case. I wonder what will happen then. |
140 |
|
141 |
They'll be replaced as needed. |
142 |
|
143 |
>> Open source is about community - a community of contributors, not a |
144 |
>> community of voters for whom a vote costs nothing, or maybe it costs a |
145 |
>> few bucks. |
146 |
> |
147 |
> Ok, so FOSS is about community, but that community of contributors can't |
148 |
> vote or have representation or any say. That makes allot of sense in the |
149 |
> same sentence :) |
150 |
|
151 |
You have your say since you are part of this community and you got this |
152 |
by contributing, easy, isn't it? |
153 |
|
154 |
>> None of us started using gentoo because we got to vote to |
155 |
>> make the devs do what we wanted, but rather because we saw that a bunch |
156 |
>> of devs had created something that we could really use. Every |
157 |
>> successful FOSS project I can think of operates in the same way. |
158 |
> |
159 |
> Really, so have you looked at Gnome lately? |
160 |
|
161 |
Less than stellar? |
162 |
|
163 |
> Or what about FreeBSD? |
164 |
|
165 |
Devs do their stuff as they like in their quite closed community. |
166 |
|
167 |
> Have |
168 |
> you looked at any projects of our size or near it? What are you basing |
169 |
> your comparisons on? Be specific, providing an opinion with no facts to |
170 |
> reinforce it is baseless. |
171 |
|
172 |
Your examples are satisfactory already. |
173 |
|
174 |
>> I'd really like to see the Foundation aim to involve more of the |
175 |
>> community and point out when the community is neglected. |
176 |
> |
177 |
> That completely contradicts most of what you have said so far. |
178 |
|
179 |
Not really, you plan to get more people inside the foundation that can |
180 |
have some kind of power over the developers, he would like to have the |
181 |
foundation get more developers and aggregate the opinion of non |
182 |
developers. Pretty different, isn't it? |
183 |
|
184 |
>> I'm genuinely concerned that this move could have the |
185 |
>> long-term results of causing a fork which would be very disruptive (or |
186 |
>> maybe not - just look at XFree86). I'd really rather not see this |
187 |
>> happen to my favorite distro! |
188 |
> |
189 |
> Again, let's thing about all the negatives. All the bad things that |
190 |
> could happen. That you would even thing a stronger foundation would lead |
191 |
> to a fork in Gentoo. That's pretty hilarious. |
192 |
|
193 |
C.F. Xorg vs XFree86 |
194 |
|
195 |
> I think Gentoo has come close to forks before and it had 0 to do with |
196 |
> the foundation. If something like that occurs, it's for many other |
197 |
> reasons. |
198 |
|
199 |
People can have different opinion and wants to check if they are right |
200 |
the experimental way. Nothing wrong with it. |
201 |
|
202 |
lu |
203 |
|
204 |
-- |
205 |
|
206 |
Luca Barbato |
207 |
Gentoo Council Member |
208 |
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC |
209 |
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero |
210 |
|
211 |
-- |
212 |
gentoo-nfp@l.g.o mailing list |