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On Aug 7, 2005, at 05:22, Grobian wrote: |
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> Anywayz, for those that don't know, I'm a new developer on the OSX |
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> team. |
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|
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If they don't know, they've been oblivious of your name all over |
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bugzilla. Good work! :) |
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|
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> Before going into a long mail, I'll apologise upfront for my |
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> English, it's horrible. |
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|
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We know your English is good since you make the same spelling |
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mistakes us 'native speakers' make. *mumbles something about how us |
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native speakers aren't so native* |
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|
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> I like to contribute some useful things here, and I hope I can find |
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> a corner where I can be that useful as I hope to be. |
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|
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We're all here on our own free will (hopefully). Those that aren't, |
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and realize it, generally leave pretty quickly. You've seen this on |
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gentoo-dev@. As such, we do what we're interested in. Your job as a |
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dev is to enjoy what you do while avoiding tree breakage. If you're |
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able to, you might even fix a few things along the way, or improve |
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the project. |
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|
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Take Lina. Lina is a biologist first, computer scientist second. As a |
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result, she took an immediate interest in the sci-biology category. |
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Most of the packages there have been ported now, and are maintained |
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by her for ppc-macos. She keeps on top of the relevant RSS feeds, and |
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keeps track of stable-by dates in iCal. She even maintains a sci- |
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biology package or two. This is her interest, and her first priority |
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with respect to Gentoo. |
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|
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While Lina enjoys more instantaneous gratification, I'm more happy |
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working on long-term goals and slowly making progress one step at a |
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time. My interests are different from hers, and we work in different |
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areas. This is not to say that we don't work together, just that we |
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work on different sides of the same coin, at the same time, sometimes |
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cooperating towards a common goal. |
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|
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You will have to find a corner for yourself. If anyone tells you what |
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to do, you may or may not like it. You are free to find any corner |
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that you are sure to like. If you think you like something and change |
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your mind, just move to another corner. You seem to be into the DB |
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side of things, perhaps you'd enjoy porting and maintaining some |
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database services (mysql comes to mind) for ppc-macos. The only |
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person who knows what you're enjoy is you. Again, devs are here to |
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have a good time, not to be slaves. |
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|
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> At the moment I have the terrible feeling of being useless, doing |
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> nothing struggling with everything that gets on my path. |
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|
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The majority of our "struggling" comes from inadequate upstream |
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support for Darwin. This means that the most important thing you can |
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do in terms of porting software is to send all your source patches, |
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no matter how trivial, upstream. Sending patches upstream is |
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nontrivial itself: you have to check out the latest source tree from |
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CVS (or svn), get it working, and send back the results. You will |
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probably end up porting less packages per unit time this way, but it |
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is better in the long run. It's better to patch something once than |
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for every successive version that comes out. That way, we struggle |
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once per package. |
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|
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We obviously can't say why you're feeling useless, but we know that |
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we personally get that feeling due to the slow nature of making long- |
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term progress as an arch. Large change takes time, especially when |
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those changes involve portage itself. As developers, we don't feel |
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like we're making much progress by porting a few libraries and |
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applications, but, to the user base, this is more progress than those |
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large long-term projects Hasan is so fond of. Imagine how many people |
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you'd affect by porting mysql, for example. |
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> I'm not really an IRC guy. I know what it is, but in general it's |
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> great in distracting you and stopping you from doing what you have |
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> to do. Due to my time zone, I usually miss the important |
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> discussions too. Hence, I'm thinking of a drastical reduction of |
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> my IRC online time. I have the feeling most of the OSX staff is in |
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> the #-osx channel, but it simply doesn't work out so well for me. I |
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> prefer the asynchronous way of email, it also allows me to take |
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> some more time to type a response. As a non-native English typer, |
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> I need more time to come up with responses. And usually, it's time |
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> zone free! ;) |
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|
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There are plenty of devs with exactly the same stance. Don't worry -- |
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that's perfectly fine. There's no _requirement_ for you to be |
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available via IRC. |
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|
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If you've noticed, you rarely see us on IRC, except when we need to |
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get in contact with other developers. Like you, we feel it's more |
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distracting than helpful most of the time. Just drop in once in a |
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while and let us know that you're still alive, or send an e-mail out |
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every so often. Your relations thus far have been flawless. |
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> I got a fuzzy image of what the OSX team currently consists of. |
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> It's far from a unity, more a group of people somewhere related |
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> because of a shared OS, most of the time. Personally I'm a bit lost |
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> in what the general consensus would be among the team members. |
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> Maybe there isn't even one. There is progressive, darwin, osx, |
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> etc. the arch ppc-macos seems to be a multi-headed dragon. |
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|
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Your image is essentially correct, in our opinion. Right now, we have |
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about as many developers as we do profiles -- well, maybe not quite. |
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Your perception of the team being far from unity probably stems from |
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the fact that we more or less have one or two developers working on |
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different facets of the OSX port. Kito and Robert (we think) are |
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working on the darwin port and the progressive profile. JoseJX works |
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on perl and baselayout, mainly on his free time from the ppc team. We |
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(Lina and Hasan) work on the collision-protect profile, for which you |
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were recruited. |
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|
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We hope to increase the number of developers for the Gentoo for Mac |
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OS X project, but we're doing so slowly since our last recruitment |
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process was a disaster (one that Hasan and I were part of as new devs |
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brought in during that time). You were our first pick, so you're |
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seeing the beginning of the process to get a coherent team together. |
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|
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Along those lines, we probably need to elect a new strategic and |
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operational lead as Pieter (pvdabeel) has other priorities at this |
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time, and Ciaran (ciaranm), a senior developer that stepped in to |
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help us with QA and operations initially when Pieter got too busy, |
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has decided to no longer act in that capacity. |
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|
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We have been doing our best to pick up the slack and start some of |
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the processes that the leads are responsible for, such as recruitment |
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and interacting with the portage developers to get necessary bugs |
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ironed out. |
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|
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We would like to hold an election for the positions that we have been |
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more-or-less filling unofficially, as the new metastructure suggests. |
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We would like to be candidates for Operation Lead (Lina) and |
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Strategic Lead (Hasan). Obviously, anyone else who wants the position |
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should announce candidacy. We don't suppose that it is necessary |
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(pretty much everyone on the team knows each other fairly well by |
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now), but if anyone would like a short blurb on why we feel we would |
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be good candidates for the positions, just let us know. Is a week |
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enough time to allow anouncements for candidacy? We feel that a long |
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process isn't necessary with so few developers on the team to date. |
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If everybody would rather have an informal IRC session or email tally |
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than a vote, that's fine with us. |
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> My vision on Portage for OSX is exactly what the name says; portage |
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> on OSX, thus a portage instance next to the original OS, so I can |
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> enjoy the flexibility and package availability of portage and the |
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> sweetness of my OS. I am willing to accept that I can't install |
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> autofs on a Mac OS X machine. Maybe it sucks, but then you better |
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> install Linux on it afterall. A Mac is different, thinks |
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> different, and yet, well... maybe I just like that. In portage |
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> terms this is called "collission-protect". Great! |
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We have the same vision. |
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> Now it seems to me, after paying careful attention to some of the |
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> comments made in the #-osx channel that this vision of mine, which |
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> equals the current 'distribution' I think, can be considered the |
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> unwanted child in the Gentoo family. Ok, it will be always a |
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> bastard child, like Portaris would be, but someone started with |
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> this idea, and got it into portage somehow. How did this whole |
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> thing emerge within the Gentoo community, and what happened |
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> afterwards to get into the stage it is in now? |
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|
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Kito did a pretty good job summing this up in his own reply. I think |
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it's important to note that this vision is changing in terms of |
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respect for Gentoo for Mac OS X developers. A lot of the old-time |
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devs still voice dislike for the idea of a metadistribution, either |
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because of the way it's being implemented or because they preferred |
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things when it was just Gentoo Linux. |
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|
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> Ok, this probably all sounds a bit depressing, or put differently, |
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> quite unpromissing. However, all I need for now is some guide into |
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> the wilderness I guess. What are the (common) targets of the |
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> team? What is it 'we' want to achieve? Who thinks what? |
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|
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The team has a number of different targets. Our targets differ from |
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Kito's, as do our views on the efficacy of portage co-existing with |
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Mac OS X. I think a common goal is a working implementation of |
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prefixable installs, but this is a goal for the next major portage |
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release, so it will take some time. Currently, Lina's goal is to |
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increase upstream support for darwin, and to maintain Gentoo for Mac |
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OS X as a viable platform for biologists. Hasan is involved with both |
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long-term and short-term strategic needs of the project, in terms of |
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interacting with the portage team, core system tools (pretty much |
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anything that's base-system), and marketing (getting the most desired |
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packages working, documentation, etc.). |
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|
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It's really hard to have a common target without having any leads. |
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We're working on it. I think that we need to recognize two major |
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different facets of the Gentoo for Mac OS X project -- the Darwin |
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side and the Mac OS X side. The strongest tie between these, in terms |
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of porting, being common linker woes. |
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> I hope somehow to become a valuable/active member of the team, but |
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> so far I think I haven't had the opportunity to do so. |
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You already are. Just don't push yourself too hard. :) Large change/ |
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progress takes time. |
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|
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-- |
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|
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Hasan Khalil && Lina Pezzella |
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eBuild and Porting Co-Leads |
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Gentoo for Mac OS X |