Gentoo Logo
Gentoo Spaceship

Note: Due to technical difficulties, the Archives are currently not up to date. GMANE provides an alternative service for most mailing lists.
c.f. bug 424647
List Archive: gentoo-osx
Lists: gentoo-osx: < Prev By Thread Next > < Prev By Date Next >
To: gentoo-osx@g.o
From: Grobian <grobian@g.o>
Subject: Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:13:22 +0200

Nathan wrote:
> I'm not a _gentoo_ dev, so I'm not sure if my input here is welcome. 
> If it's not, feel free to stop reading now  :-)

I consider it welcome.

>> ...I like to
>> point at the literature.  Think of some big management gurus, like
>> Mintzberg (could I mention another name instantly?), Davenport, etc.
> This may be true in the short run for large corporations in an
> unfeeling 'command and control' structure.  In the long run, I don't
> believe it's better for anyone.  I've never been one to be influenced
> by Big Management Gurus(TM) or their short-sighted, self-serving
> doctrines.  (Their visionary, selfless doctrines are okay though)

On the contrary, their logic is used on the long run.  Though I can 
agree with you that their methodology might seem a bit overdone here. 
I'll explain lateron why I brought it up.

> Lets run through your logic:
>> Ok, why you say, simple.  Noone will accept a lead from his/hers own
>> team.  
> Proof to the contrary:  I've been on several small volunteer teams. 
> In my experience, a lead selected by general consensus (or elections)
> is accepted by all except the most immature people who tend to have
> pre-existing personal grudges against the lead.

yes, correct*.

>> Simple as that.  It works like that in the real world.
> Perhaps with nasty corporate cultures and/or immature people.  In my
> experience, gentoo devs seem to be rather mature, and I've not felt
> oppressed by the gentoo culture yet.

Yes, correct*.

>>  It's hard
>> for the lead and hard for the people to be lead.  
> The best followers lead the leader with the best suggestions.  The
> best leader follows the best suggestions of his followers.  I work
> where I do now because I CHOSE my boss.  If some jerk were appointed
> in his place (project manager over development), I would be outta
> there quicker than a flash.  I would be ok promoting someone from
> within the team, or hiring an outsider that we all like (non-jerk
> variety).

Yes, correct*.

>> Hard because you used
>> to be on the same level, and had chats/whatever on the works as being a
>> 'worker', now suddenly that co-worker is going to tell you what to do.
>> And maybe you don't like it.  
>  _Assuming_ the lead has no tyrannical powers to force everyone to
> obey their every whim (I looked for Gentoo documentation on team
> organization and responsibilities, but couldn't find it.), there
> shouldn't be much to worry about.  Assuming (again-sorry, where are
> those docs?) that a Gentoo lead consists of mostly extra
> responsibilities, and not of extra sticks to beat people with, being a
> lead tends to be more of a 'character building chore' for the lead
> than anything else.

Yes, correct*.

>> You used to be able to have arguments, now
>> you're just supposed to cooperate.
> If Gentoo policies _really_ say that you have to Unquestioningly Obey
> The Lead In All Things(TM), then I will swiftly disassociate myself
> with all things Gentoo.  Do you really think Hasan and/or Lina are
> going to turn into earless monsters if they jointly become 'the lead'?

I hope, but I think you are correct*.

*) provided in the case that all is well and there just need to be some 

I have the impression that a few major things *have* to be done.  This 
requires 'action' and taking discisions that probably not everyone is 
going to be happy with.  I feel especially the last one is required to 
bring this project *any* further, because it appears to be stuck on 
little details, while the big lines aren't even properly drawn.  Hence 
my rather business-like approach, which may be the horror vision for 
anyone.  Of course I do *not* prefer a situation where people can't be 
free in what they want to do for the project.  However, you cannot have 
everybody doing not so much (or almost nothing) too.  I don't think open 
source and volunatary work means: "do whenever you feel like it".  If 
that would be the base, many things would not have been here around now. 
  You need people that are passionate, and devote some time to a project.
I don't want people to relate this sentence above to this team directly, 
for I'm having a more general talk here.

If I read carefully between the lines of some very active (and sometimes 
counsil) members, I hear this complaint.  We see this complaint when 
people leave the project with furious last words on about 300 devs and 
noone testing package X.

In my opinion open source needs to be managed too, because if it isn't, 
it doesn't move or innovate.  The Gentoo counsil isn't just put there 
for fun, they are clearly chosen to get Gentoo move again at certain 
points.  They will provide some management, to serve a higher purpose, 
which is a long term one.

Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X
gentoo-osx@g.o mailing list

Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
-- Finn Thain
Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
-- Lina Pezzella
Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
-- Grobian
Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
-- Lina Pezzella
Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
-- Kito
Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
-- Grobian
Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
-- Nathan
Lists: gentoo-osx: < Prev By Thread Next > < Prev By Date Next >
Previous by thread:
Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
Next by thread:
Re: Arch Testing Policy and Procedures
Previous by date:
Re: Taking a break
Next by date:
Re: Taking a break

Updated Jun 17, 2009

Summary: Archive of the gentoo-osx mailing list.

Donate to support our development efforts.

Copyright 2001-2013 Gentoo Foundation, Inc. Questions, Comments? Contact us.