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To: gentoo-osx@g.o
From: Kito <kito@g.o>
Subject: Re: Re: [RFC] Separate alt-prefix repo for base-system packages.
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:47:51 -0500
On Aug 29, 2005, at 5:30 AM, Finn Thain wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Grobian wrote:
>
>> Kito wrote:
>>>
>>> On Aug 27, 2005, at 4:32 PM, Grobian wrote:
>
> At the moment, ppc-macos would need the collision-protect feature, but
> once we have a feature for prefixed installs, that should be used  
> instead
> (by default, at least).
>
>>> The user interface would need to be hashed out as well of course.  
>>> How
>>> do you install/bootstrap it?
>
> It would be nice to have ebuilds that could invoke the Darwin Build
> Scripts (and merge the result on a ROOT).

Yeap. already planned on using this to build a libSystem, etc.

>
> http://www.opendarwin.org/projects/darwinbuild/releases/
>
> Given such ebuilds, surely catalyst can bootstrap it.
>
>>> Where is the local configuration data stored? This is an area that I
>>> think would be acceptable to take some Mac OS specific indulgences,
>>> such as plists for the main config data(prefix info, search paths,
>>> etc), pkgs/dmgs to bootstrap/install, and I also think we should  
>>> abuse
>>> the umbrella Framework mechanism when feasible.
>>
>> Wow, using plists would be a first start on getting portage widely
>> accepted because it includes the buzz word XML.  LOL.  On a serious
>> note, I think Apple has shown XML can work somehow.  At least it  
>> has an
>> open character, and it's great when you can 'script' your Keynote
>> presentation by just doing string manipulation in a big XML file.
>>
>> So I would say, let's try to use this horrible XML on a pilot base  
>> for
>> small configuration files.  Maybe we should do it better than  
>> Apple at
>> some point because their XML does not always make use of the tree
>> structure of XML.  For XML I would say: only deal with it if it looks
>> appropriate for the case and it is relatively easy to extract the  
>> data
>> (which is often very flat, as in the .plist files).
>
> I reckon XML is important, though perhaps not in the way you  
> describe. As
> I see it, where ever portage is deployed as a secondary package  
> manager,
> it needs to consult the primary one. That means that there needs to  
> be a
> standard protocol for one package manager to query another.
>

I'm not sure I agree. I think this gets too close to a  
package.provided situation, portage will never know enough about  
another systems packages to map their functionality to its own. I  
think its preferable to let portage handle what it knows first hand  
before trying to force it data from a foreign host.

>
>> Let's indeed make it a 'native' application for OSX users.  Native in
>> the sense of how it installs and looks like. I may give file  
>> locations a
>> thought today, but maybe I should know the Framework stuff a bit  
>> better
>> first.  Can we install the whole Gentoo stuff in a Framework? or  
>> is it
>> better to just use a shortest path algorithm and end with /gentoo?
>> Actually the user should be able to select a disk to install to  
>> during
>> install...
>
> I reckon get it working (with an "upstream darwin" profile) in a  
> chroot
> stage first (which could double as a boot disk).
>

I want to start a lot smaller than that first. Think stage1. You  
can't boot a stage1, its a just the corelibs and a toolchain pretty  
much.



>>>   The repo should never ever never ever EVER rely on anything it
>>> doesn't know how to supply itself with, whether that be a tool, a
>>> library, knowledge of a filesystem, a host, a protocol, whatever. It
>>> doesn't matter how it gets it, it just needs to know at least one  
>>> way
>>> to get it. This implies of course proper implementation of ferringbs
>>> BDEPENDS idea.
>>
>> so, you mean if there is something (a filesystem) portage hasn't
>> installed, then we should create the proper handles to deal with  
>> the OS
>> provided one?  As in create a compatibility tool for "fdisk.HFS 
>> +".  I'm
>> a bit clueless on how exactly you want to achieve what you want.   
>> Maybe
>> I don't understand correctly what you want exactly too.
>
> This is how I would handle that case:
>
> If a program (say fsck_hfs) is available upstream, build it with Dawin
> Build, merge it with portage (I expect an eclass for darwin build is
> required, and of course an ebuild for diskdev_cmds.)

About what I was thinking...

>>
>>>   Binary packages have to work. Thats a fun one. But all this done
>>> properly, should allow for at least a little more consistency  
>>> than the
>>> current situation. I'm still sold on using xar[1] for this  
>>> despite the
>>> rather heavy deps (they are deps I would want in most any  
>>> environment
>>> anyway - libcurl,ssl,libxml,zlib), and it just fits the bill too  
>>> well
>>> imho, support for most standard arch specific data such bsd flags,
>>> ACLs, resource forks ,.etc as well an excellent TOC structure  
>>> that is
>>> perfect for storing environment settings and package metadata.
>>
>> Again XML.  If you do it XML, you have to do it all XML, something  
>> Apple
>> apparently understood.  It appears we will have the blessings if  
>> we use
>> XML, so I think we should.  In the end we can always dump all that  
>> XML
>> into MonetDB/XQuery to have extremely fast querying over all the  
>> files,
>> tree based. I think it would seriously be the first project to use
>> XQuery and XML for it's configuration.  However, if you come to  
>> think of
>> it, it is a tree, an extensible tree, and might be a much more a  
>> logical
>> choice than it appears to be.
>
> Why not use one of the open source .pkg tools to generate binary  
> packages?
> Kito tells me he has already been able to unpack .pkg format and  
> install
> it via portage.

Thats just to get extract files...I'm talking about binary packages  
that portage can use. I don't like the current tbz2 hack.

I have no interest personally in producing packages with a  
proprietary format for portage. Be a nice feature for OS X users and  
devs sure, but thats more like an add-on bells-and-whistles type  
feature... patches accepted ;)

>
>>>   Avoid package.provided or anything of its likeness like the  
>>> plague.
>>> This repo needs to describe a toolchain from the ground up,  
>>> regardless
>>> of the host. "What CAN it build and how?", not "What WON'T the  
>>> host OS
>>> let me do".
>>
>> Uhm, yes please!
>
> Hear, hear!
>
>>>   Keep the number of ebuilds to a bare minimum. We can't get too
>>> carried away with maintaining a complete tree, or we risk  
>>> drifting too
>>> far downstream and the zealots pushing Darwin/Mac OS support out of
>>> the main tree entirely. That would be bad. This can't go in the
>>> direction of a fork, just an experimental branch that will be merged
>>> back in at some point.
>
> IMHO, this sounds like a "gentoo-darwin" sub-project to gentoo-alt,
> along-side os x and bsd. It isn't really a fork except in as much  
> as the
> profile arrangement doesn't really accomodate work on darwin proper  
> (but
> then the profile arrangemnet is flawed anyway: it only exists this way
> because of the package.provided crutch).

I was looking at it more as a place to develop some new portage  
features...Gentoo/Darwin has always been lurking, this is more in the  
area of just getting offsets working.

>
> -f
> -- 
> gentoo-osx@g.o mailing list
>

-- 
gentoo-osx@g.o mailing list


Replies:
Re: Re: [RFC] Separate alt-prefix repo for base-system packages.
-- Finn Thain
References:
Re: [RFC] Separate alt-prefix repo for base-system packages.
-- Grobian
Re: [RFC] Separate alt-prefix repo for base-system packages.
-- Finn Thain
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Updated Jun 17, 2009

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