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To: gentoo-pms@g.o
From: Brian Harring <ferringb@...>
Subject: Re: Clarify wording on self-blockers
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 18:41:43 -0700
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:34:00PM +0200, Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> On Wednesday 27 of April 2011 21:24:51 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> 
> > > > Uh, no, that's the entire point of EAPIs.
> > > 
> > > This is a common misconception.
> > 
> > Uh, no. You are completely and horribly wrong.
> 
> > EAPIs were introduced to avoid the problems that we used to have where
> > different versions of Portage did different things with the same input
> > (including, but not limited to, difficulties in adding new features).

To be clear, Ciaran is very much correct here- I added EAPI in to 
fix ongoing shit like this where overlays/old ebuilds in the 
tree would be broken via the latest/greatest insanity portage leveled, 
and to allow new ebuild functionality to roll out quickly instead of 
having to sit for at least a year.

This is *exactly* the point of EAPI- it's format versioning for 
compatibility.  As such once a version is considered "released" or 
"stable", it's basically immutable.

EAPI was explicitly designed to allow a portage from 2 years back to 
be able to function w/ ebuilds written to that EAPI- assuming the 
version of portage in use was compliant w/ the EAPI2 (from 2 years 
back), it should still function w/ ebuilds written in current times 
that are EAPI2.

Not saying it was done *perfectly*, but this is a large part of it's 
intent.


> > > From ebuild developer point of view - EAPI specification should
> > > provide all knowledge required to create ebuilds along with detailed
> > > and unambiguous description of what to expect from package manager
> > > that is compliant with said EAPI.
> > 
> > Oh heck no. That really isn't the point at all.
> 
> But it is. Discussion about blocks is precisely about what is expected package 
> manager behaviour for self-mutual blocks (in EAPI>=2) in such case. And what 
> you propose is 'behaviour is undefined for self-mutual blocks' - if so, why 
> are they permitted by specification and not banned instead? The way you 
> understand the word 'specification' doesn't really allow any specs bugfixes 
> since they would "magically" invalidate any existing implementations, unless 
> there is just one (and actually there *is* just one *supported*) so that 
> specification could be kept in sync with it.

Ciaran's coming at this from the academic definition of 
"specification".  In a perfect world, it's correct- once a spec is 
stabled, it's immutable sans clarifying wording/intent, and even that 
involves occasionally converting bad parts of the spec to unspecified 
(or unspecified if a large PM screwed up their implementation badly 
enough you can't rely on that assertion any longer).

Pragmatism is such that bugfixes/tweaks do get pushed in where 
required, and where it doesn't fuck us hard to do so.

As for *why* they're allowed in the first place, it's because the spec 
is incomplete- it has a large number of assertions, but covering all 
of it is fairly hard (and questionable in usefulness for certain 
spots)- I generally hate 'unspecified', but the primary usefullness is 
to make clear that proceeding behaviour could vary across PMs- 
specifically it should be used when 

> I thought PMS is specification and not a documentation - hence it should 
> specify (to document would be poor choice of words.. ) intended, widely agreed 
> behaviour and *defined* behaviour so that ebuild developer knows how to write 
> ebuilds that work against PM *compliant* with specification and package 
> manager developer knows how to write *compliant* PM. And because there are 
> many places where PMS is too vague, it misses those goals.

Asserting all behaviour is actually fairly hard.  Patches welcome for 
that intent, but additions to the spec have to be written to avoid 
breaking previous assertions in the spec- as said, a portage that was 
EAPI2 compliant 2 years back needs to work with ebuilds that EAPI2 
from today.

It sucks, but this is /proper/ versioning.  It's a hard problem.


> > > Old package managers and their expected behaviour is irrelevant as
> > > soon as migration path to recent version exists for them.
> > 
> > Again, you are deeply confused. It is required that an upgrade path for
> > old package managers is kept around for as long as possible by not
> > using newer EAPIs for certain key system packages. This is entirely
> > different to what you're saying -- it means that certain packages
> > should be kept at low EAPIs for as long as possible, not that EAPIs are
> > whatever the latest Portage version does.
> 
> No, you're making it up here.

This is actually required.  Abided by?  Not as well as it should 
(python has been fucking that one up hard), but take a look at glibc's 
eapi, gcc, binutils... etc.

This is *exactly* what we intended when EAPI was added 5.5 years ago 
(and was the intent for the year or so before a patch got pushed in).


> > > Since intended behaviour for normal vs strong blocks is like Ulrich
> > > specified, and migration path to the most recent from first portage
> > > supporting EAPI-2 exists - argument to block specification update is
> > > invalid.
> > 
> > That doesn't follow at all. What happens if someone has an old Portage
> > installed and the migration path includes things that rely upon a
> > changed behaviour?
> 
> It wouldn't be a migration path, would it?

You're proving his point.


> > Since you're trying to retroactively define a
> > particular behaviour for all EAPIs that doesn't match what some old
> > Portage versions do, your upgrade path is screwed.
> 
> No, I'm supporting *defining* behaviour as it's intended so that package 
> managers are able to know whether they are correct. You're making all of them 
> correct by explicitly allowing them to do anything here and there - it's not 
> helping.

What you're not getting is proper format support.  Yes, there are 
areas in eapi0, 1, 2, etc, that I'd *love* to go back and make a 
clearer definition on- the problem is ensuring that all versions of 
portage/pkgcore/paludis that supported those EAPI's are still 
compliant.  If that can be assured, then, within limits, we can 
redefine previous EAPIs- because effectively we're not actually 
defining any *new* behaviour, just clarifying old behaviour that 
happily matches what we want now.

If those things hold, we can't do it, and that's a fact of defining 
versioned formats.


> Ulrich: maybe we should consider renaming PMS to PMD? :P

It certainly would be nice being able to avoid stating "active in 
gentoo's PMS process" for folks resumes, I must say (which is where a 
lot of the juvenile humour derives from I suspect).

So... rather than continuing to argue about what EAPI was intended 
for, lets switch back to whether or not we can clarify the rules for 
self blockers in existing EAPIs, and what we'd like it to be for 
>=EAPI5..

~harring


Replies:
Re: Clarify wording on self-blockers
-- Maciej Mrozowski
References:
Clarify wording on self-blockers
-- Ulrich Mueller
Re: Clarify wording on self-blockers
-- Maciej Mrozowski
Re: Clarify wording on self-blockers
-- Ciaran McCreesh
Re: Clarify wording on self-blockers
-- Maciej Mrozowski
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