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Hello Roy! |
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|
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(Usually, I'd rather not get a courtesy copy. This time, though, it was |
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good to get it as I didn't get your reply on the list. :-( ) |
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|
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On Saturday, June 23, 2007 06:57:55 PM Roy Bamford wrote: |
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> > "E. [Proctors/Devrel] determine recruiting needs and recruit to |
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> > achieve them." |
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> > Members of an institution that is supposed to impose disciplinary |
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> > action on Gentoo devs and others should not be recruited but elected. |
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> Disciplinary action is very much a last resort. |
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|
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Yes, of course, but as it's the ultima ratio it should be considered, |
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IMHO. |
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|
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> before they get to the point of needing disciplinary action. Much of |
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> the proctors work is done in /query or by personal email. |
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Sounds good to me. Like that, it won't get as much (negative) |
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attention. :-) |
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|
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> Very little is like my email to the 'bubble' thread on the -dev ml. |
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|
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Which was an honourable attempt but bound to trigger the "free |
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speech"/"censorship"/"I must be heard anyway!" nonsense. :) |
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|
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> I don't see the difference between recruitment and being elected |
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> unopposed. devrel members are recruited and not elected at the moment, |
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Yes, that (recruitment) is wrong, too, IMHO. :-) |
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> To hold a meaningful election you have to find more people who want the |
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> job than there are vacancies. If that can be demonstrated I have no |
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> issue with elections. |
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|
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Even if there are not enough people to fill the vacancies, there's a |
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difference between being appointed or elected. An election lends at least |
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*some* weight to the position. |
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|
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> > Otherwise their authority will be challenged all the time. Elected |
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> > members will have at least a *bit* more autority. |
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> By the nature of the public part of the proctors job, whatever they do |
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> or do not do, they will be attacked by some group. |
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|
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Yes, that's pretty much guaranteed. It helps, though, to know you can vote |
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for someone else next time. ;-) |
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|
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> > That'll lead to rushed (and therefore potentially wrong) decisions. |
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> Any group making decisions on incomplete information is likely to make |
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> errors. |
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|
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So don't act on incomplete information. :-) |
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|
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> > IMO, we don't need proctors but if the proctors are kept, they should |
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> > work on a comlaint basis, too. |
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> Thats a nice ambiguous example to work on. Did you mean "too" as in |
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> "like devrel do today" or "too" as in "as well as" [working without a |
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> complaint] ? |
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|
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The first. Work on complaints only, like DevRel. |
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|
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> Its ambiguities like that in the English language that can lead people |
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> to feel insulted when no insult was intended. |
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|
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You're right. :-) |
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|
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> > Suppose both parties come from "Czamistan" - they both know "big- |
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> > balled goat lover" is not an insult but a compliment - why should |
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> > proctors react? |
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> Let me cite a recent live example from #gentoo-dev, which I have to |
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> from memory as I don't log that channel. In outline the story unfolded |
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> like this :- |
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> dev1 (a non native English speaker) said something out of character and |
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> when challenged, gave an explanation that dev2 "found difficult to |
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> believe". dev1 took that as being called a liar, which its not, |
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> depending on the readers understanding of the nuances of English, it |
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> means "that's unusual or out of character behavior for you". |
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> I don't know dev1 well enough to determine if the misunderstanding was |
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> genuine. |
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|
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That's an excellent example: First of all, it's between two devs; dev1 |
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could complain to DevRel. Eventually, dev1 would hopefully be "punished" |
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for filing a trivial complaint. |
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As for proctors: Don't bother to even think about such nonsense. If people |
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are so easily offended, they deserve whatever comes their way. |
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I still think that almost 20 years after we adopted our policy in FidoNet, |
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it has a very reasonable POV on disputes. Especially the two rules below |
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are something worth "stealing", IMHO: |
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|
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----------------------------- |
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9 Resolution of Disputes |
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|
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9.1 General |
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|
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The FidoNet judicial philosophy can be summed up in two rules: |
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|
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1) Thou shalt not excessively annoy others. |
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|
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2) Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed. |
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In other words, there are no hard and fast rules of conduct, but |
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reasonably polite behavior is expected. Also, in any dispute both sides |
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are examined, and action could be taken against either or both parties. |
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("Judge not, lest ye be judged!") |
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----------------------------- |
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|
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I really sympathise strongly with the second rule and the dev1 one from |
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your example should have taken it to heart. |
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|
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> > Without proctors, we can simply ignore non-dev offenders. We may have |
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> > to deal with other devs but there's no obligation to interact with |
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> > certain users. |
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> As you say, we can ... but the evidence suggests that we don't, or at |
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> least a vociferous minority don't. |
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It's not so much the users (well, apart from one special, former-dev user) |
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we mostly argue with. Usually, we don't need anyone but other devs. |
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|
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> > "and after some conditioning", "re-orientation" and some other terms |
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> > used in either or both documents. |
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> I'm not sure of the context of these quotes, |
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|
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proctors:development.txt: |
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"Note: Several proctors recently resigned. We are willing to restore |
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them on two conditions: (1) None of them may serve as lead; (2) Each of |
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them must undergo the same reorientation/interview process as the the |
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current proctors." |
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|
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"A. Reorient the proctors to their tasks." |
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|
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proctors:purpose.txt: |
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"The wise developer wishes a visit from neither organization, and after |
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some conditioning, I expect the developer base to become more sensitive |
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to flame situations and to work to avoid them." |
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|
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The wording is, IMHO, unfortunate for someone asking others to be "more |
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sensitive". :-) |
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|
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> however lets consider the |
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> -dev mailing list since the dust settled on the 'bubble' thread. |
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> Ignoring the multiplicity of views expressed there and on IRC, my |
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> impression is that the signal to noise has improved already |
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|
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That's true, indeed. It settled down after the proctors stopped acting |
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publicly there. :) |
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Or did "either organisation" (long live British English! ;) ) "visit" some |
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poor soul? ;-) |
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> You may suggest that I'm supporting your view that the project is not |
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> required. |
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Yes, you are. You just don't know it yet. ;-) |
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> I'm not. the project serves to provide focus. |
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We probably won't come to an agreement on this but we don't have to |
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anyway. :-) I'll stay within the bounds of the CoC which in itself aren't |
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too bad. |
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|
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> (NeddySeagoon) Writing as an individual, not on behalf of the protors |
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Bah! So that means I can't complain about the stubborn proctors not seeing |
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the light? ;-) |
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If I complain about you, Roy, people will only tell me that stubbornness |
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comes with old age... |
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Best regards, Wulf (running and hiding now) |