Gentoo Archives: gentoo-project

From: Steve Long <slong@××××××××××××××××××.uk>
To: gentoo-project@l.g.o
Subject: [gentoo-project] Re: Proposal to ease flames
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:42:00
Message-Id: f974tj$kii$1@sea.gmane.org
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-project] Proposal to ease flames by Roy Bamford
Roy Bamford wrote:
> Steve, > > I've in lined my words of wisdom ... you may not agree with them but > they are mine, after all. >
Heh welcome to the first amendment ;) UK, you say? That's the 51st state.. /me wanders back on-topic.
> On 2007.08.05 02:36, Steve Long wrote: >> I was thinking about the recent discussion re flames and firefighting >> on the dev m-l. One thing that occurred to me, as a user who has been >> on one side of those, is that it would have been better if I had >> never been able to post more than two posts in a day. (I mean this >> for the technical dev m-l, not project.) > That's ok as long as you only want to respond to flames and be off > topic. It would limit the noise a non dev can create. As soon as you > want to use -dev for its intended purpose, it would cramp your style. > This could not be usefully automated >
Yeah but this is a mailing list, not IRC. As a non-dev, my input necessarily has less technical weight, since I am unfamiliar with gentoo development processes and policy. In normal circumstances, I usually just read the list, and if i have any questions i try and answer them myself. If i post, it means i haven't got a clear answer from irc, prior ml or bugzilla discussions. Given the timescale on a ml, 2 posts per day is plenty for me to ask about stuff that isn't clear.
>> >> That's plenty for me to say "I think that's out of order" and to >> answer a response, but it also means I can't get too emotional if I >> get flamed by a stressed-out dev. > Nor can you easily take part in technical discussions, should you want > to :) >
See above (not being pedantic; not ignoring this point is all.)
>> After all, since the proctors have gone, there's no one to respond in >> anything like mail-list time in the (admittedly unlikely ;) event >> that there is another flamewar on the dev list and more cogently >> no-one to mute a troublesome user (in real time). A dev who is >> consistently anti-social (especially out of the blue when they should >> just ignore the thread) can be dealt with by devrel. (And have been >> in the past.) > After the fallout from the "Bubble thread" that lead directly to the > death of the proctors, -dev appears to have calmed down. I'm not sure > if that's because the proctors got so much publicity over that one > incident that everyone knows of it and reviewed their behavior, or if > they have just gone on summer holidays. I think this list will help > take the pressure of -dev too.
Agreed.
>> >> If the user is making a valid point, surely others will post in >> support, and in any event they can respond the next day. That would >> minimise the chance that a user unused to the rough-and-tumble of dev >> behaviour would react in a hostile manner, and can in no way be seen >> as censorship of the user community, at least to my mind. > If you are making a valid technical point, your posts don't need to be > throttled. If not, you should not post to -dev at all. >
Yes, but for a novice user (in terms of interaction with the dev m-l) it's hard, and people make mistakes. The first time i got flamed I was totally bewildered by it. The three or four times that's happened since, I was still totally blindsided, since I thought I was posting common-sense, typically to try and present the other side of the argument when someone was being misunderstood. (Please don't review all of my mistakes, I am aware they /were/ mistakes.) You then find yourself drawn into a flamewar which you were trying to calm, typically by one of the participants being offensive to you.
>> >> What do you think? >> > Social problems demand human in the loop control. That's why courts > have (skilled ?) judges for sentencing, not just a look up table of > offence - punishment. >
Yeah but this isn't punishment. It's just acknowledging that the list is specifically for technical development, and that devs have more to say in that debate. Since there is a history of misunderstanding with users, it makes sense to me to limit the user posts to two per day. If there is a hot buzzing thread which I have to respond to, it'll still be hot tomorrow (if I can't be bothered to review the threads first.) And let's face it, more new users are interested in stuff that belongs on -project (if not help from the user m-l) like "Why are devs so prickly?"
> A part of Gentoos problem and probably other OS projects, is that most > devs are still learning their social skills. They are school or > university students.
Heh ok. I'd also support a more proactive devrel in that regard, ie actively monitoring the list, as a quid pro quo for limitation on users. This to me is about helping devs to deal with users, which is part of the process for being a dev in the real world. OFC if everyone thinks this is a silly idea, no problem. List seemed quiet.. ;P -- gentoo-project@g.o mailing list