Gentoo Archives: gentoo-project

From: Markos Chandras <hwoarang@g.o>
To: gentoo-project@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Council discuss: overlapping council terms of two years
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:48:27
Message-Id: 4E3C1EAE.1040604@gentoo.org
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-project] Council discuss: overlapping council terms of two years by Patrick Lauer
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4 On 08/05/2011 05:32 PM, Patrick Lauer wrote:
5 > On 08/05/11 15:54, Markos Chandras wrote:
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7 >>
8 >> On 08/05/2011 02:44 PM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
9 >>> On 05-08-2011 14:17:29 +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
10 >>>> I am still not convinced that a committee of 7 people is
11 >>>> flexible enough to push radical changes.
12 >>>
13 >>> Perhaps I misunderstand you here, but I don't think making
14 >>> radical changes is good, that's what 7 people balance out.
15 >>> Radical changes have been made to important parts of Gentoo like
16 >>> e.g. Python, and this didn't really result in a major
17 >>> improvement, IMO.
18 >>
19 >> My point is how fast and how flexible can a committee like this
20 >> decide on global project issues
21 >
22 > If you have a good idea and carry it forward you can expect it to be
23 > ratified within the next council meeting - so with deadlines for
24 > discussion items etc. about 6 weeks turnaround time in the worst
25 > case.
26 >
27 This is very optimistic.
28
29 > But... for that YOU have to move things forward. Demanding that
30 > council makes other people do things is not how Gentoo works. So if
31 > you think slacking arches are a problem ... aquire a Mips or Sparc or
32 > whatever machine and get cracking.
33
34 Right, exactly what I am saying. A single developer has to put his
35 effort to push things forward. Last time I remember something similar
36 was when Ben (yngwin) tried to introduce changes and he was "forced" to
37 retirement. Awesome. You know very well that if a single person tries on
38 his own to change things, he will lose motivation sooner or later.
39
40 You know, another solution for slacking arches is to drop the stable
41 keywords. OFC this is too scary and it wont make us look good :). This
42 problem in particular exists before I even become a developer. Everyone
43 complains, yet nothing changes :). And the solution is pretty obvious:
44 "If you can't maintain a stable tree, then don't have one"
45
46 >
47 >> Right nobody came with a proper solution yet the problems still
48 >> exists. The same problem will probably pop up again in the future,
49 >> recycling the previous discussion and go back to sleep again.
50 >> Someone has to decide and vote for the least worst solution before
51 >> the problem goes back to hibernation, otherwise you are back to
52 >> square 0. This is no progress
53 >
54 > Actionism won't help. If you don't even have a solution either the
55 > problem is well defined, very hard to solve or not the right problem
56 > to fix (see the whole "let's find a problem so that systemd is a
57 > solution" insanity that just won't walk away and leave us alone)
58 >
59 Maybe but pretending there is no problem is not good either. Keep
60 talking and try to come up with a solution. After all, most of us ( if
61 not everyone ) are engineers, programmers etc, sysadmins. We can't
62 really say "Eh, sorry, too hard for me, I'll skip it"
63
64 > And again, if you don't want it to go to sleep work on it, find
65 > others that want to work on it, radiate on relevant communication
66 > channels (blog, mailing lists, ...) that you work on it. Don't expect
67 > others to do things for you.
68 That is true.
69
70 >
71 > I'm quite happy with the current state, there's lots of users
72 > helping with issues if you ask,
73 That could be better. We definitely need more communication channels
74 with users and bugzilla is a bottleneck. But this discussion does not
75 belong here.
76
77 > there's usually a few devs that give at least moral support, and
78 > things move as fast as I can keep them moving. What's the problem
79 > with that? :)
80
81 There is no problem, I am just saying things could definitely be better.
82 Again this does not belong here
83
84 What I gathered from your e-mail is that Council is there to just vote
85 for issues that other devs brought to the agenda. This is a bit pathetic
86 isn't it?
87
88 - --
89 Regards,
90 Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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