Gentoo Logo
Gentoo Spaceship




Note: Due to technical difficulties, the Archives are currently not up to date. GMANE provides an alternative service for most mailing lists.
c.f. bug 424647
List Archive: gentoo-project
Navigation:
Lists: gentoo-project: < Prev By Thread Next > < Prev By Date Next >
Headers:
To: gentoo-project@g.o
From: Richard Freeman <rich0@g.o>
Subject: Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:55:48 -0400
On 04/22/2010 07:41 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> My concern here is the idea that the council should be able to "disband"
> a project or turn it around 180 degrees. If we open the door to this,
> then we'll be throwing away the principles that any developer can create
> a project, that a team acts as its members choose to and that in the end
> some choices fall to those who do the work.

Not at all - developers could still do all of this, as long as they 
don't do anything so drastically bad for the distro that the council 
would need to step in.

The council should of course use discretion in its actions, and it 
should always just talk to somebody before they go booting people/etc.

> Besides, if the council
> were to "disband" a team or try to force a policy on it, how do you
> think that would work if there were no team members left and no one
> stepped up?

Again, a good reason for the council to use discretion.  However, in 
some cases it would be better to not have a team at all than to have a 
team acting contrary to the overall distro's interests.

> Finally, in extreme cases, the council can also have a word
> regarding individual developers and or projects.

How?  This is exactly what I'm proposing - that in extreme cases the 
council can intervene directly as needed.  If the council can't do this, 
then how can they "have a word" unless you literally mean nothing more 
than words.

> Gentoo isn't exactly a "democracy" and therefore such comparisons
> usually are not adequate for us.

Perhaps not purely so, it is a bit more of a meritocracy, but it is 
essentially democratic.  I don't see why democracy is a bad thing, as 
long as it doesn't involve those who don't do anything wielding power 
over those who do.  Having at least a little control over the membership 
roles should mitigate this.

> Gentoo (the distribution) is not a Corporation, so that comparison isn't
> adequate as well.

What is a corporation?  It is essentially a body of people aligned to a 
common purpose.  The same governance models apply to everything from 
businesses to clubs to professional organizations to churches to 
parliaments.  Perhaps all these organizations have figured out that this 
model works fairly well - or at least better than the alternatives. 
Honestly, I don't really see what cohesive alternative you're offering 
other than a loose confederation with oversight by closed bodies.

> But Developer Relations isn't a "Boy's Club" or the only "not so open"
> group in Gentoo. There's also User Relations. The infrastructure team,
> for its own responsibility and abilities, as far as I know, has always
> invited members in and doesn't have open membership. To a certain extent
> the QA team has worked that way too and I'm sure most of us would like
> QA members to exhibit certain qualities. Then there's PR.

I don't think that any of these organizations are doing a bad job.  I'm 
not sure they should be open to anybody who wants to sign up.  However, 
there should always be oversight.  That is really all I'm proposing. 
Having council oversight actually frees up these organzations to not 
feel as beholden to admit devs at large, since the council can hold them 
accountable.

In the end there will always be oversight - right now it isn't written 
down, but in the end SOMEBODY or some group is in charge.  I guess it 
effectively is whoever has root on the servers, or perhaps the trustees 
since they can determine who can use the name Gentoo.  All I'm saying is 
that we should realize that governance is necessary and set up the best 
form of governance we can have.

> A former council did have some influence, not directly in the KDE
> project, but by having DevRel evaluate and act on one of its members -
> at the time the Lead. That action did had a profound impact in the
> project - it almost killed it and it took a long time for KDE to get
> back in shape.

And in the end, was Gentoo as a whole better off or worse off? 
Sometimes you need to take a step back to take a step forward.  I have 
no idea what the specifics of this situation were, so I can't comment on 
whether I agree or disagree with what the council did.  However, if a 
key contributor to Gentoo is doing more harm than good by driving others 
away, then it might be better for them to not be around.

Donnie gave a good talk to this effect:
http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/21519531

> To be clear, I do want the Council to have influence over Gentoo, but I
> don't like the idea of "carte blanche" and therefore am concerned about
> the degree and method by which the council should "leverage" its influence.

Well, are there any alternatives short of the Council being able to do 
nothing but ask people nicely to not destroy the distro?  I'm fine with 
checks and balances, but in the end somebody needs to have the final 
say, and I'd rather see that be a body elected by all - either the 
trustees or the council.

Maybe there are some ways to address the concern of a runaway council.

Rich


Replies:
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
-- Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
References:
[GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
-- Denis Dupeyron
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
-- Richard Freeman
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
-- Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
-- Richard Freeman
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
-- Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Navigation:
Lists: gentoo-project: < Prev By Thread Next > < Prev By Date Next >
Previous by thread:
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
Next by thread:
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
Previous by date:
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Do we want to make changes to the role of the council?
Next by date:
Re: [GLEP 39 overhaul] Voting and schedule


Updated Jun 18, 2012

Summary: Archive of the gentoo-project mailing list.

Donate to support our development efforts.

Copyright 2001-2013 Gentoo Foundation, Inc. Questions, Comments? Contact us.