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To: "René 'Necoro' Neumann" <lists@...>
From: Aniruddha <mailing_list@...>
Subject: Re: Gentoo <--> Sabayon Relation
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:33:17 +0200
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<B>Sabayon</B> is considered 'close' to Gentoo, but not necessarily 'very close' (atleast in my view). The reason for this is because <B>Sabayon</B> uses its own versions of some pretty major packages (browsing through their overlay, I see packages like grub, xorg-x11 and xorg-server to name just a few). <BR>
<BR>
The problem is not that we (the Gentoo community) don't want to provide official support, it's that we can't (beyond a certain point). <B>Sabayon</B> provides its own version of many packages and these seem to (sometimes) lag behind the official Gentoo tree. A case in example: The other day someone came into #gentoo complaining that nvidia-drivers wouldn't install with glibc-2.6. Glibc-2.6 no longer includes the nptl and nptl-only USE flags, but the <B>Sabayon</B> package was still looking for them. There's nothing the Gentoo developers can do about this - it would require commit access to <B>Sabayon</B>'s overlay. There's nothing much most users can do about this - The only suggestion I could make was &quot;ask in #<B>sabayon</B> or use the package from the official tree&quot;. <BR>
<BR>
This is a simple, obvious example of a change that caused problems. There could easily be many much more subtle problems that break systems in a much more subtle way. Most people in #gentoo will happily provide support for <B>Sabayon</B> users, but if it becomes suspect that the problem lies in using Sabayons packages, then there's frankly nothing we can do as we don't know how <B>Sabayon</B>'s packages differ, with most of us being Gentoo users, not <B>Sabayon</B> users. <BR>
<BR>
As for providing official support on Bugzilla, a <B>Sabayon</B> users first point of call must be the <B>Sabayon</B> developers (via their Bugzilla). If the <B>Sabayon</B> developers then determine that the problem lies in Gentoo's tree, they should report it to the Gentoo developers (via Gentoo's Bugzilla). This is the same way things work with Gentoo vs upstream. Users report bugs on Gentoo's Bugzilla, if the developers determine that the problem lies with the program itself, the problem will then be reported to the packages developers (AKA upstream). There's a hierarchy of responsability here, the model of which is generally followed throughout the open source world. (To take the hierarchy further, the packages developers may determine that the problem lies with a library that they use, in which case they may report the bug to the library's developers (further upstream)). <BR>
<BR>
There are two seperate questions here, with seperate answers: <BR>
1) Can Gentoo's developers provide official support for <B>Sabayon</B>. The answer is no - <B>Sabayon</B> users should report problems to <B>Sabayon</B>'s developers, who will then report the problem upstream if necessary. <BR>
2) Can Gentoo's community provide unofficial support for <B>Sabayon</B>. The answer is yes - up until the problem is determined to be (possibly) <B>Sabayon</B> specific - and it does. <BR>
<BR>
To translate this on to the Debian vs Ubuntu example: If an Ubuntu user asks for help in #debian, they'll get it, but if the Debian community determines the problem is possibly Ubuntu specific, they'll tell the user to go back to the Ubuntu community as there's nothing they can do. If an Ubuntu user reports a problem to Debians bugzilla, the Debian devs will tell them to go talk to the Ubuntu devs because there's nothing they can do - they have no influence over the Ubuntu packages. <BR>
<BR>
Beso: <BR>
Gentoo doesn't have kicker, an essential part of KDE in it's repository. Right... This is exactly the problem... it does, and the differences may cause bugs that manifest themselves outside of Kicker in subtle ways. The Gentoo developers have looked at the differences between the repositories, and they aren't closed minded, but they haven't got the time to run through every problem from <B>Sabayon</B> users to determine themselves if it's a problem with Gentoo or <B>Sabayon</B>. There is a chain of responsability here and for <B>Sabayon</B> users it starts with the <B>Sabayon</B> developers, just as with Ubuntu users it starts with the Ubuntu developers. <BR>
<BR>
In summary: <BR>
<UL>
    <BR>
    <BR>
    <LI><B>Sabayon</B> is NOT Gentoo. <B>Sabayon</B> is CLOSE TO Gentoo. 
    <LI>The Gentoo community does provide unofficial support for <B>Sabayon</B> users. 
    <LI><B>Sabayon</B> users should report problems to Sabayons developers, who will then report the problem upstream (which may or may not be the Gentoo developers) if necessary. 
    <LI>If it's a <B>Sabayon</B> specific problem, then only people who know <B>Sabayon</B> (ie. the <B>Sabayon</B> community) are going to be able to help solve it. 
</UL>
<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-541789-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-sabayon-start-100.html">http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-541789-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-sabayon-start-100.html</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 21:22 -0700, Ren&#233; 'Necoro' Neumann wrote:
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">Hey guys,</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#000000">I'd like to discuss a topic that I know much people will use for</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">trolling/flaming or similar. If you feel like this - get you a weapon</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">and cool down, but please do not answer :)</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#000000">I start this discussion as I'm inspired by some posts at drobbin's blog.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#000000">The first thing:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">What is the actual (official) attitude towards Sabayon?</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#000000">If it is as I think it is (negative) - why is it like this? Why isn't</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Sabayon treated as an official &quot;child project&quot;? Why is support denied</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">for Sabayon Users? - I know that they have a global ~$ARCH and some</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">not-so-nice hacks ;), but this shouldn't be a reason, as problems</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">related to this shouldn't be the major part...</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#000000">I want just to propose, that the devs should be more open for Sabayon -</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">and see it as a source of ideas and software. If lxnay will finish</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Entropy (and it helds what it is supposed ;)) - it will add a feature</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">that is often asked for and always declined as &quot;not possible&quot;. (And</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">there may be other stuff ...)</FONT>


<FONT COLOR="#000000">Hmm ... I had several other thoughts but forgot them during the day :/.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">So again: Only serious, constructive answers :)</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#000000">- -- Nec</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#000000">P.S.: Nope - I'm not a Sabayon User :)</FONT>
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References:
Gentoo <--> Sabayon Relation
-- René 'Necoro' Neumann
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