[gentoo-project] Re: Re: Re: Re: Plan, then communicate (no-list)

[Steve Long]

Wulf C. Krueger wrote:

>>> I'd wait for the bugs to come. If there are problems, we have Bugzilla
>>> to use for that.
>> That's fine for technical problems: it's a lot harder to use that to deal
>> with social problems.
>
> I've written it before (in the context of some discussions on the -dev
> mailinglist): People need to grow a thicker skin. If people are scared
> by "fighting" among the developer's I can't really help it. We have
> quarrels just like anyone else. We will piss each other off sometimes
> and either work it out or agree that we consider each other idiots.
> That's fine, that's life.

Agreed; I don't have an issue with disagreement: I have just seen too much
*nastiness* (especially on the dev m-l.) And it really annoys me that it
goes unremarked from devs, since they have signed up to _represent_ Gentoo.
Go and have the flamewar off-list, or on IRC. If it's someone you can't
speak with, deal with it professionally on-list by sticking to the topic at
hand (as far as possible.) Yeah there'll be times where that doesn't work,
but they should be exceptional, not commonplace.
 
> Most users I've heard or seen so far aren't even really concerned with
> social stuff but (semi-) technical things - no 2007.1 release
> (technical issue), GWN (semi-technical; lack of manpower and user
> contributions), quality of the tree (technical) and the Foundation
> bullshit (non-technical and without any real relevance for our users).
>
> If those are addressed (and all of them are), most of the discontent
> will either disappear or at least things will calm down again.
>
Yeah I don't think that addresses the issue of involvement though, and it is
a central problem for devs as well as users, since you are overstretched.
I've spoken to too many user who've complained, with good reason, to accept
that technical problems, especially lack of manpower, don't sometimes have
social causes.
 
>> would take a very brave user indeed to file a {user,dev}rel bug.
>
> (That would be a UserRel bug.) Why? How many people have been eaten by
> UserRel so far? ;-)
>
> Furthermore, seeing all those comments on Robbins' blog and from brief
> looks at the Forums, I'd say we have (more than ;->) enough brave users.
>
Heh, maybe so; thing is if someone's nasty to you (wherever it is) and
no-one else comments, you just assume that's the culture. If you then act
similarly, you will be flamed. That just leads to confusion and
ill-feeling, for zero benefit to anyone. And often that person will just
walk away (no need to show them the door) and you've lost an advocate and
gained a detractor.

> Yes, it will need some maturity but, yes, I *do* expect that from
> people who want to be taken seriously.
>
Sure, but devs have to show just as much, if not more, maturity; or we won't
take your claims to be snowed-under seriously. "You haven't got enough
people? Hmm I wonder why.."

>> what I am getting at is that users need to be molly-coddled to a certain
>> extent:
>
> We've had that. It was called User Representatives and it failed
> because the representatives decided not to represent anyone by either
> not showing up or simply doing next to nothing. I'm not into
> baby-sitting; I've three kids of my own. :-)
>
Hehe I know what you mean (not as many kids though.) I actually feel that
way about the devs (collectively.) I don't care how much you whinge about
being over-worked, you're doing it out of your own self-interest; you can
quit whenever you want, and some of you even think it acceptable to treat
Gentoo as your own "private playground." If you want more help, ask
*nicely* and *behave* nicely or no-one will want to play with you.

> Nevertheless, whenever a user approaches me with a minimum (!) of
> politeness by mail, in the Forums or on IRC, I treat him/her like
> that, too.
>
>> they're in a position of less power and not so comfortable with the
>> processes.
>
> Maybe but we need a certain degree of processes and people *will* have
> to follow them just like I have to as well.
>
Sure; but if you look at users as potential future devs, it's worthwhile
helping them when they are clearly out of their depth. A quiet bit of help
at the beginning makes the world of difference, and brings you a "convert."
There've been a few times in #friendly-coders when someone has asked a
really stupid question, and I really haven't been in the mood to deal with
them. The times when I've bit my tongue and just pointed them in the right
direction, have pretty much always ended up positively.

There's been the odd time that hasn't worked, but others have stepped in to
explain (usually after I've hit !diy, !ego and !igli ;) and only once have
we had to kb someone (after days of problems; he's come back a bit wiser,
finally.)

>>> No, really. I don't want anyone to leave but if someone really thinks
>>> Gentoo is going down the drain (which it isn't), I can't do much about
>>> it.
>> Sure; but if they're going to leave that's up to them. Scaring em off
>> (which is how "if you don't like it, there's the door" sounds) isn't in
>> Gentoo's interest imo.
>
> Sometimes, that's the only reasonable answer, though.
>
Well it's the answer I'd personally give to the drobbins ultimatum, but I'd
never say that to my users for any software I've ever written. I might
say "I don't want/have the time to add that, feel free to patch it, and
[maybe] I'll help you with it." If you don't see users as your client, you
won't get anywhere with software development ime. You might get paid, but
you won't be asked back; the best software is always the stuff that
end-users (be that admins, end-users or other coders) feel ownership of,
because it's been developed in response to their needs. No user buy-in, no
use of your code, as many large organisations have found (usually just
after they rolled out their new EIS that was a year late and /way/
over-budget, only for everyone to ignore it.)

Yeah devs are users too; but imo please the users and the devs will be happy
(if they're not they can change it) since they get more kudos as everyone
wants to use it. Please the devs only, and all you get is technically nice
software that no-one else knows how to use, and frankly you code yourself
into irrelevance since everyone's using the other software that makes them
*feel good* about wastin^W spending all their time on a computer.

Devs are just as susceptible to the "ooh, shiny" bit as well; it's human
nature. Many books have been written on HCI and they overlap with
psychology (although the resultant doctoral students annoy the hell out of
me, as they have nfc when it comes to implementation and they claim to know
CS.) It's not something a coder typically worries about, but we like the
same interfaces, especially for apps we don't know.

To be an effective coder, imo, you have be able to think like a user (which
is why it's fun: you see what happens in all the other industries close up
at a data-level.) Spending your days sneering at users is not a good career
move, and imo Gentoo should stamp on it-- hard.

NB: None of this means entertaining unreasonable demands or tolerating
discourteous behaviour.

> "TF"? :-)
>
/me looks innocent: Thank Freitag! ;p


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