[gentoo-user] Re: Project:Installer

[James]

Bruce Schultz <brulzki <at> gmail.com> writes:

>
    >> Matthew Marchese <maffblaster@g.o> writes:

        >> I see that you've found stager. I'd like you to share
        your thoughts >> on what a perfect installer Gentoo could do.

        A successful gentoo installer will:

        Be multi-faceted so that many different, but common
        installation outcomes are not only possible, but are
        automated to the point of extreme convenience for folks to
        use them, as they choose. Let's face it no matter what we do,
        most noobs will not use Gentoo. But, those folks with some
        level of experience and competence will use gentoo; many more
        if there is an automated (base)installation. After all, when
        google or others corporations install and use gentoo, do you
        think they have folks spend 1-2 days using the handbook? NO,
        their gentoo(derivative) has an automated installation.


        So a base-installer for your [category 1] is the
        most important part. So in that train of thought,
        WE, should parse out all of the good parts of many
        different installers and installation schemes, as a part
        of the research and leverage as to what exists that can
        be leveraged or emulated, Debian included. OpenSuse has
        (13.2) has a slick install that allows for btrfs without
        lvm or mdadm. That was the default pathway. I've read that
        you can end up with a full raid install if you choose the
        "advanced" pathway. I'm still researching that one. Then
        there is 'Calculate Linux' that more than one gentoo dev
        uses routinely to install Gentoo. There are many pathways
        to streamline the installation of Gentoo. Many, for onerous
        reasons believe that is a bad idea.

        There is plenty of existing installation code that sets up
        MBR and ext*; so that's a no brainer on how to do that. Newer
        technologies, like btrfs are tricky.

        > In my opinion, there's really 3 parts to the install
        process, and I think it helps to distinguish > between
        them. I think a complete installer program has to address
        all 3, but each task could be > modularised.

        > 1. The low level decisions, like disk partitioning, raid
        and disk mirroring, filesystem choices > like ext4, btrfs,
        zfs, or some other. For a VM, the choices here might include
        creating a > new LVM volume or btrfs subvolume

        Gentoo is not going to formally support ZFS as has been
        stated before. However supporting ZFS by others is well
        documented and some maverick could easily extend the
        gentoo-base installer for a target system (after your
        Category-1) where ZFS is installed. Just not officially
        gentoo.

        > 2. Installing system files, which is not much more than
        untaring the stage3, and low level > system configuration
        of make.conf settings, choice of profile, locale & timezone
        settings, > users & passwords, networking, choice of syslog &
        from, etc

        Category-2 This is a pretty easy part to automate. Many
        have stated that all of this information could be gathered
        up before the actual installation (batched) begins and
        parsed out at the appropriate time during the actually
        (automated) installation.

        All of Category 1 as well as some parts of Category-2 are
        what I refer to as the base-install. After that point is
        when you make key decisions like workstation vs server vs
        embedded vs tablet.

        > 3. Higher level system configuration to get to a finalised
        state
This is the part of the traditional Gentoo handbook I do
        agree with. This is the part of the installation where noobs
        begin to actually learn gentoo, or at least those parts
        necessary for routine administration and usage. This is part
        of the handbook that is trivial for experience *nix folks
        as most are familiar with more than one package manager or
        software installation semantic.


        Most of these sorts of noobs (folks that struggle with
        maintaining a *nix system) are never going to profile
        low level kernel code or compare one file system against
        another, so why make it mandatory to master category 1 in
        order to install, use and enjoy gentoo? Currently, the lack
        of a gentoo installer is exactly that:: a blocker to noobs.
        That's not my issue:: the devs are using 'mis-direction' here
        to prohibit the creation of a slick-smooth-unattended-useful
        base-install semantic for those with moderate *nix skills,
        imho. YMMV. That's my issue. Dont belive me?  Just go to
        gentoo-dev and read the flack that MaffBlaster caught
        on the list, merely for discussion a new installation
        semantic. Hence the focus on 'stage-4' install code.


        > (Of course, there's quite a bit of blurring between
        the stages.)

        Yes, understood, we're talking at a high-level of abstraction
        here.

        > I'm not so interested in 1, but gentoo really shines
        here because there are no restrictions.  > But there are
        so many options that it makes it a big task to tackle,
        unless you pare it down > and focus on a few typical use
        cases like a standard desktop install.

 OK, well this is where we part company. If you really believe
        this and all we end up with is a competitive distro install
        with buntu, what's the point? Critics are going to seize
        on this and say see, your recruiting the idiots and ricers
        from buntu to come to gentoo for indentured support. Like
        them, that's not really the target of my goals.  I do think
        some will learn a sufficient amount about gentoo and using
        *nix in general that they will stick around and benefit
        the community.

        I think a solid base-install that is automated benefits
        the folks that already know their way around *nix and
        they can quickly benefit form the source code build out
        tools very, very quickly. If somebody does not know the
        difference between C and C++, I'm not for catering to their
        needs. But the lack of a good, automated installer for the
        basics does run off many accomplished *nix folks who could
        then the gentoo community tremendously, imho.

        If somebody wants to build a firewall, a stealth sniffer
        (no ether traces, a bridge, an embedded system product, a
        workstation with openrc and lxqt or wayland, a cluster (in
        house hardware) or a cloud (outsourced hardware) then that
        is where we need to distinguish gentoo's installation. It
        becomes a tool for those with expertise to rapidly install
        the base-system and then do things you cannot do with buntu.


        Note:: I use the term 'base' to distinguish from 'default'
        which is the terminology chosen for gentoo's profile
        system of choices. They are similar, but I believe that
        a base-install is less than a default system on a given
        architecture. This is a concept that I am still trying to
        refine for categories of systems like tablets, embedded
        and other kinds of minimal hardware types of systems. It's
        a different issue for a different thread.


        > Part 2 is where it would be good to have a standardised
        approach, along the lines of > debian's debootstrap
        utility. Something that takes a target directory and installs
        all the > files needed to build a bare-bones system inside
        it. Its actually not that difficult > to write a shell script
        to achieve this, which is probably why there are so many >
        posted around the interests. But something standardised
        could be the basis of a gui > installer, or the center of
        a container installer such as the lxc-gentoo script or >
        whatever the docker equivalent is.

        What you are talking about here, to me, can be part of
        your category-3. In fact, I modify what you have written
        to only (2) parts Step-1(base-install) and Step-2 (Final
        Target). Step-2 does not need to be automated by gentoo
        officially imho. It's mostly a few config questions and
        a collect of packages. You can actually auto this right
        now. Just create your own 'profile' on  top of a default
        installation and use ansible.

        MuffBalster said the first part is the  easiest part;
        that is to go back to supporting (stage-4) installs. Lot
        of subtle intricacies with 'stage-4' but I'll give you my
        take so you can see where the devs are rolling.

        If you have expertise and have created one utopian install
        for a highly targeted need, then a stage-4 installation
        semantic will allow you to quickly clone  that work and build
        many more similar system, in a fully automated fashion. So
        for Clustering, cloud, google, large institutions or
        consultants with advanced skills, it become a defacto private
        installation sematic where the inner circle and those with
        a strong set of admin/programming skills prosper. Maybe an
        inner circle?  The noobs are still filtered out. Those in
        the middle to do gain from the knowledge and expertise of
        the inner core of devs. Is that the way it should be? Not
        for me to decide. I'd just like some help with newer file
        systems (btrfs), gpt, grub2, and such issues in Step-1.

 Those that have painted my position to be recruiting the
        masses of noobs from buntu, are using mis-direction to
        prevent the large number of moderate-skilled gentoo community
        from the benefits of a streamlined installation. The
        fact is that gentoo had a very useful, mostly automated
        installation, and it was abandoned because of the catering
        to the noob issues. But they did not have to abandon the
        STEP-1 needs of those with sufficient *nix skills to benefit
        from installation automation.

        > The 3rd task is more in the realm of tools such as ansible
        or puppet.


        Step 3 already exists in rudimentary form::

        Both Sephan and Alan have posted on using ansible for
        gentoo installs. It's just not polished to the point of
        being an installer, imho. There are many other formulas,
        playbooks and such for installing gentoo, but they are
        cumbersome, imho. Folks stop short of finishing them,
        as is their right to do so. Once you go down the path of
        applying noob_polish to the installation semantic, it does
        become an unsustainable nightmare, or at least that is the
        propaganda:: which I am neutral on.


        >> Having that said, and having done few Gentoo
        installations: I'm merely >> wishing installing Gentoo
        wasn't such a lengthy process.  It's lengthy >> in that you
        have to do the steps manually while browsing the excellent
        >> handbook.

        Ah, so you agree, streamline the base and most can streamline
        the target part of their installation needs without much
        assistance; thus avoiding noob_population_explosion.

        >> If there was an installer that would guide you through
        these steps and >> bring up the files you need to edit
        in an editor, that could save a lot >> of time already.
        It could reduce the possibility for error, as in >>
        overlooking that you need to do some step.


        > Which is what part 2 is about. I started writing
        my own installer based on using > ebuild files for the
        configuration. But I like your idea of an interactive mode
        for configuration.

        >> Otoh, I have to come to like how Gentoo is installed.
        You can do >> whatever you like, and the process is pretty
        straightforward.  I don't >> see how an installer could
        give you that, yet a perfect installer would >> need to.

        > And that is the difficulty inherent in a gentoo
        installer... If its too restrictive, > its not really gentoo
        anymore; if its flexible to cover all the options, you may
        as > well just stick with typing commands in a shell...

        I disagree. If the base-install is automated then the
        second half of customizations are trivial to automate or
        following the handbook to learn gentoo, as it is very easy
        and straight-forward. Once you do that part a few times,
        it's a collection of configs and ebuilds that are easy to
        master and automate.

        >> How about support for booting from ZFS?  I'd really like
        to see that; >> itshould be as easy as booting from other
        file systems.  Without it, we >> have to do ugly things.


        ZFS is a different (license?) issue. There was a ZFS livedvd
        circa 2012..... Go look at that for ideas.


        If I seem 'conciliatory' to those opposed to the install
        software development, it's because I put in some time
        looking at the issue from their prospective. Your breaking
        apart of the installation ssemantics did help me focus on
        the Step-1 issue; which is the point and what need to be
        automated, imho.


        Last Zinger:: SystemD created quit a stir on this list right
        down to the heart of gentoo's soul as a distro. I believe
        that was healthy. When I go round the net, that is still
        the single biggest issue where gentoo get's respect from
        all corners (except Lennart's hottub parties)......

        I just which we, gentoo as a distro, were embracing and
        automating the installation of BTRFS, like we pursued
        systemd. BTRFS is a game changer and many advanced folks
        and institutions are using it. It's a bear. So, I'd settle
        (be very happy) if out of these installer threads we just
        end up with an automated way to complete a BTRFS, raid-1
        system that includes a completed  fstab, gpt and grub2
        issues in some sane and automated way. WE can still filter
        out the noobs........OK?



        PEACE?  
        James