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On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:50:24 -0500 |
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Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@×××××××××××.org> wrote: |
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> All myself and others have been insisting on is that systemd |
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> proponents be prevented from unilaterally creating some kind of |
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> dependenc[y][ies] whereby, through that backdoor, they create a |
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> situation where the *current* *default* init system must be switched. |
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It are the consumers that do, sometimes even the packagers; because some |
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neat future that fits them is provided by one implementation, they adopt |
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that and given limited manpower they expect other implementations to |
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follow. This is whilst stating "However, long term hopefully |
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gnome-session can die and such code in systemd." in the following blog |
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post by a GNOME foundation as well as GNOME release team member: |
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https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/ |
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On Gentoo, we indeed prevent such dependencies where manpower allows |
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us; for example, to give an opposite example, we've even removed |
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sys-apps/openrc from several package dependencies to allow for its |
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removal. The same is actively guarded for sys-apps/systemd; but for |
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both, you'll be able to find an exception to it here or there. |
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The same is said by one of the Gentoo Council members in a comment on |
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another blog post here, worth reading: |
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https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2014/02/03/my-thoughts-on-the-default-init-system-for-debian-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-782 |
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> And your preference for systemd doesn't obligate your distro of |
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> choice to change to it as the *default* init system. |
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What is a default in a distro with meta choices anyway? Yes, choice: |
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https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=482702 |
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> Again, we are just insisting that systemd proponents be prevented |
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> from forcing gentoo into a situation where we are *forced* to switch |
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> to systemd for the *default* init system. |
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While it is something to worry about; however, it's only happened once |
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and temporarily for GNOME (decided on by our maintainers), this has no |
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implication that this will happen much more beyond that. There are |
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people that are going to actively prevent that if it does happen. |
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> > Hence the general case above. If you want to use foo without using |
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> > bar, but the upstream and package maintainers of foo want to use |
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> > bar, then it's _your_ responsibility to make foo work without bar. |
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> > PERIOD. |
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> |
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> I agree... so, if *you* want to use systemd, it is *your* |
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> reponsibility to make systemd work without impacting existing gentoo |
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> users |
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The impact, if any, is kept as minimal as possible; Gentoo, as stated |
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by it philosophy, about page and documentation is a meta distribution |
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which implies we attempt to support choices. Sometimes this means that |
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minimal adjustments need to be made to support multiple choices. |
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> *or* the fact that gentoo has selected OpenRC as it's default init |
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> system. |
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It's rather a consequence than a fact; for it to be a fact, there needs |
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to be an accepted motion from an higher instance stating it to be so. |
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> This isn't about individual packages. It is about one of the choices |
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> that *Distro's* must make - in this case, regarding something very |
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> significant (the choice of what to use as the default init system). |
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Both (separate stage3's), or none at all (stage<3); are also options. :) |
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> We, again, are simply insisting that it is the responsibility of the |
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> developers of systemd to *not* create situations where they *force* |
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> other distro's into *impossible* *situations* where they are *forced* |
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> to switch their init systems or have basic system packages stop |
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> working. |
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It are the consumers, to some extent even the packagers, that do this. |
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> The best way for gentoo, as a distro, to protect its users and it's |
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> ecosystem, is to provide a sane, managed approach for systemd |
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> proponents to get systemd added to gentoo as a formally supported |
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> *optional* init system. |
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+1 |
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> Then, and only then, can it be judged on its *merits*, |
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+1 |
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> and then and *only* then should it (imnsho) ever be considered as a |
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> potential candidate for being made a new *default*. |
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-1; unless, well, it has lost its "controversial" status in the future. |
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-- |
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With kind regards, |
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Tom Wijsman (TomWij) |
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Gentoo Developer |
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E-mail address : TomWij@g.o |
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GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D |
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GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D |