Re: [gentoo-user] systemd and kernel developers cooperating to turn it into a global cgroup manager?

[Daniel Campbell]

On 10/19/2013 06:35 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 19.10.2013 17:02, schrieb Daniel Campbell:
>> On 10/17/2013 11:27 PM, Mark David Dumlao wrote:
>>> https://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/200-libby-clark/733595-all-about-the-linux-kernel-cgroups-redesign
>>>
>>> Not sure if I read that just right... but since nobody is doing cgroup
>>> management besides systemd, in practice the cgroups implementation in
>>> Linux wasn't very consistent. So since systemd is doing it, their work
>>> is helping shape the kernel's cgroups api?
>>>
>>> Interesting...
>>>
>> >From my perspective it looks like systemd developers are trying to push
>> their ideas into the kernel, almost like they intend to merge systemd
>> *with* the kernel.
>
> from what I read in the article cgroups are a mess and are cleaned up
> anyway. The only real user of cgroups at the moment is systemd.
> Others are welcome to make use of cgroups too. But in the current state
> nobody blames them for not jumping in.
No complaints here in improving something, but consider the source is
all I'm saying.

>
>> If systemd is the only implementation of cgroups and
>> their developers are working on cgroup support in the kernel, it spells
>> calamity given their history of evangelism and zealotry.
>
> well, going over some old ml threads on fedora mailing lists all I could
> find was that Poettering and Sievers DID listen and DID make changes if
> the demand was high enough.
>
> Sure, I dislike systemd. Sure what happened with udev was a dick move.
> But their 'zealotry' is a lot less developed than the zealotry of those
> who exploded about using an 'init-thingy' in the future.
>
I'd say their zealotry is less loud and more persistent. Their way is
best, UNIX (and its philosophy) is outmoded, people are thinking 30
years behind where we are, etc etc etc. Those who have separate /usr and
blame systemd for pushing them to use an initramfs aren't seeing the
real problem (upstreams not putting things where they belong, FHS no
longer *really* being worked on, generally just the filesystem being
played with like a toy)

>>
>> I truly wish I understood why a single userland program and its
>> developers are being given the keys to an entire subsystem of the
>> kernel.
> they aren't.
Of the people who have committed to the cgroup subsystem of the kernel,
how many are not members of the systemd, GNOME, or Red Hat projects?
I'll let that speak for itself.

>
>> Their changes to udev have proven to be a headache for users,
>
> yes? which ones?
Persistent NIC naming, for starters. The former maintainer's idea to
merge with systemd (which was influenced by Mr. Poettering in the first
place) when the two are completely separate pieces of software that do
two completely different jobs, and various other troubles with udev >
175 that one can Google for and find tons of results.
>
>> and the kernel is held to a much higher standard of stability and
>> interoperability. In addition, the top-level developers of systemd (and
>> GNOME, and the now-deprecated consolekit/polkit/udisks/etc) are employed
>> by a for-profit company (Red Hat), which has a vested interest in
>> shaping Linux as a platform. They and other corporations cannot be
>> trusted with stuff like this...
>
> hm, Redhat is one of the companies investing the most money into linux
> kernel, userland, graphics... if you 'don't trust them' you are pretty
> much 20 years too late.
Investing money does not make them any more qualified or deserving of
making decisions. Red Hat is not the sole user of Linux. They should
consider themselves lucky that they are even able to profit from
something that's free.

You're right, though. They've been around for a while, and I've never
trusted them or any other corporate interest in *nix. There's always a
catch when dealing with a business.

>
>>
>> I'd like to see what Linus has to say about this if/when he finds out.
>> He's not impressed with Sievers or Poettering. Personally I'd like to
>> see them ostracized from the community and contained to their own
>> distro, where they belong.
>>
> so much about zealotry.
>
>
When a tumor is growing, if you cannot excise it, you must make its
environment so harsh that it recedes. I have strong opinions, but I
don't go around shoving my software in peoples' faces or tell people
they're wrong to not use my software. Even Linus, who's known for his
ego, wouldn't cross that line.

If I'm a zealot of anything, it's freedom of choice.