Gentoo Archives: www-redesign

From: Aaron Shi <aaron@××××××××.com>
To: www-redesign@l.g.o
Subject: RE: [www-redesign] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:53:09
Message-Id: 000201c6009d$56b33b50$6402a8c0@vega
In Reply to: Re: [www-redesign] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org by Curtis Napier
1 The lack of adequate margins for content and the adbar is visually
2 appalling. We might as well remove all evidence of space such that all text
3 and images are touching all other elements, edges, containers and each other
4 so that we maximize screen estate and return-per-square-inch if that's the
5 (wrong) direction we're going. =(
6
7 There are only a few occasions that warrant margin minimization, e.g.
8 printing borderless photos on paper. The standard rule of thumb for text on
9 screen is 0.5 inches (apparent). At least line up the left edge of the
10 content text with the Gentoo logo. If you do, you'll notice that the Gentoo
11 logo is lined up with the text and lined up with the credit logo at the
12 bottom (the way it's intended). From there, logic dictates that whatever
13 margin's on the left should be mirrored on the right (unless you're
14 Picasso). Margin on top and bottom should be at least as large as the ones
15 on the side. As for the adbar, all I can say is, you fit the furniture into
16 the house, not the house onto the furniture. Ads are secondary or way down
17 the list, why are we compromising the main objectives of the site over
18 sub-sub-sub items?
19
20 Turning margins back on would be a good idea... ;)
21
22
23 P.S. Might also be a good idea to strategically position (code/structure
24 wise) the nav/content/ad/footer/etc. areas. To see what I mean, try viewing
25 the reference pages (i.e. main and guidepage) in links/lynx. Positioning in
26 graphical browsers should be determined via CSS, while text browsers that
27 can't do CSS will still render the page in a logical layout. The current
28 site at wwwredesign when viewed through a text browser such as Links, the
29 main page starts with navigation (ok), then the 4 boxes and search (but no
30 headings so they look like a giant run on), then a half page of ads, then
31 content (not labelled as news / lack of heading), then jump pads (all 3
32 appears as 1 giant list with no headings/divisions).
33
34 Sven mentioned something about text browsers links/lynx and I think he's
35 absolutely right in that they should not be forgotten. Don't know what the
36 current LiveCD comes with, but the ones I've had only had text-only links
37 and I remember how hard it was to use the old Gentoo site while I was
38 browsing the installations docs etc. E.g. the commands and crucial steps
39 are not highlighted in anyway and appears as normal text within a sentence
40 or due to spacing issues appear as part of a paragraph. I remember I've
41 wasted a lot of time when important things were overlooked.
42
43 In this new site, I tried to make it text-only friendly, hence the
44 deprecated <b> and <i> tags (which I used CSS to cancel out for modern
45 browsers), because whatever Links I had (0.9.4?) only lighted those tags
46 (<b> was white and <i> was teal - couldn't specify these values, <a> was
47 specified fuscia - closest to purple that Links could recognize - and stands
48 out a whole lot too). While it may seem superflous for modern browsers, it
49 doesn't affect them in any way at all, while on the other hand it
50 significantly enhances the browsing experience for text-only browsers. I
51 noticed that a few text-friendly artifacts were left behind when all the
52 text-friendly features were stripped during implementation, if we're
53 disregarding text browsers we should remove those artifacts as to not
54 confuse anyone. E.g. the ", Gentoo's main site" bit which was used to
55 describe the site indicator (which now no longer functions/appears as
56 originally intend), and makes no sense as it current appears at wwwredesign.
57
58
59 The search box seems a little incomplete without a "Go"/"Find" button.
60 Personally, I don't really care for such a button, but how many
61 (well-designed) sites with a search function do you find without a
62 complementary "Go" button of some sort? Again, we're trying to be intuitive
63 since empirical evidence suggests that such buttons haven't become obsolete
64 because they do add value, i.e. there are people who'll freak out without
65 them.
66
67 Aaron
68
69
70 > -----Original Message-----
71 > From: Curtis Napier [mailto:curtis119@g.o]
72 > Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 6:12 PM
73 > To: www-redesign@l.g.o
74 > Subject: Re: [www-redesign] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
75 >
76 > > Xavier Neys wrote:
77 > >
78 > >> Curtis Napier wrote:
79 > >>
80 > >>> Xavier Neys wrote:
81 > >>>
82 > >>>> Links to GWN RSS feeds are not properly displayed:
83 > >>>> http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/gwn.xml
84 > >>>> http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/gwn.xml
85 > >>>
86 > >>>
87 > >>> I forgot to copy over the image. fixed.
88 > >>
89 > >>
90 > >> The xml image is underlined and it's darn ugly IMHO.
91 > >
92 > >
93 > > It's even worse on printable pages:
94 > > http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/gwn.xml?style=printable
95 >
96 > Is it OK now?
97 >
98 > > Xavier Neys wrote:
99 > >
100 > > I prefer a list of links to older news just like on the
101 > current site,
102 > > but obviously not crammed in the left margin anymore.
103 > > I you choose the "more news" approach, fair enough, but why use an
104 > > extra /main/en/morenews.xml file with an extra ID that has to be
105 > > defined in the DTD even though those IDs are not use
106 > anymore and extra
107 > > logic in the xsl?
108 > > All you need is a "?newsitemcount=20" link.
109 > >
110 >
111 > I went with the newsitemcount solution. Why didn't I think of
112 > that? Oh well, it's fixed now.
113 >
114 > >>
115 > >> 2. This design/layout does not lend itself very well to
116 > font resizing.
117 > >
118 > >
119 > > Fair enough. It feels weird that some much emphasis has been put on
120 > > accessibility but a site that does not allow
121 > visually-impaired users
122 > > to grow their fonts is OK.
123 > >
124 >
125 > I'm working on this one. I think after the past year of this
126 > I have started to lose sight of a few major principals and
127 > have gotten sidetracked. I stepped back today and really
128 > looked at everything and I made some major changes to the
129 > underlying structure in the content area that will improve
130 > the way it handles increased font sizes/small windows.
131 > I'm still working on the menu but I should have it done by tomorrow.
132 >
133 > More about this at the end of this mail.
134 >
135 > >> 4.2 The nav bar is within the /xsl/handbook.xsl file. I
136 > was told not
137 > >> to touch that file. I take your suggestion to change the
138 > nav bar as
139 > >> permission to touch it now. Swift, if you still want me to
140 > not touch
141 > >> the handbook let me know and I'll drop in the unchanged
142 > one. I have
143 > >> started experimenting with how to make that nav bar
144 > better, if anyone
145 > >> has any ideas let me know.
146 > >
147 > >
148 > > Improving could be done, simply removing the <hr>'s is not
149 > an improvement.
150 > > Anyway, this should not be a requirement to more on with
151 > this project IMO.
152 > >
153 >
154 > I'm still working on the handbook menu, anybody have any
155 > ideas? I'm going to try the green arrows somehow or other
156 > unless someone can come up with something better.
157 >
158 >
159 > > 2nd & 3rd level title look better.
160 > > I can't say as much of the top titles :(
161 > >
162 >
163 > How are the titles now?
164 >
165 > > BTW, numbered chapters in the handbook index would be better IMO
166 > > (http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml)
167 > >
168 > > Besides, guides start with an unordered list, book chapters
169 > start with
170 > > a numbered list. Neither has any "Content" title.
171 > >
172 >
173 > I made all the content lists numbered/lettered and added
174 > "Content:" to them. Look at the Handbook (the main handbook
175 > index AND the content) and a guide and see what you think. Is
176 > this good?
177 >
178 > -------------------------------------
179 >
180 > I made a major change to the content area. I did this to
181 > address the problem of "Dead Space" under the ad bar that
182 > several people have complained about and to help make the
183 > site degrade properly when fonts are increased or the window is small.
184 >
185 > Doing this caused a problem with block items overlapping the
186 > ads. This is because in order to get text to wrap under it
187 > (ad bar) I had to float it instead of absolutely positioning
188 > it. Items like: warning, important, note and codetables had
189 > to change the way the title is done from a div to a span to
190 > keep the background color from stretching across the page and
191 > overlapping the ads. The bottom part of them is now a <p>
192 > instead of a div for the same reason. The header will now
193 > only have a colored background directly under the text
194 > instead of a banner that goes across the page. Other than
195 > that it still looks the same.
196 >
197 > Look for this in the next few days: I'm going to be making a
198 > change to the way the menu works (not the way it looks, only
199 > the HTML that renders it). The change will make it degrade
200 > more gracefully with larger fonts or in small windows. As
201 > usual IE is giving me lots of headaches or I would already
202 > have it done.
203 >
204 > Thanks for bringing this up neysx. You are right, if I am
205 > going to focus on accessibility I need to apply it everywhere
206 > and not selectivly.
207 >
208 > It's all coming together now thanks to the excellent
209 > feedback. Keep it coming people! :-)
210 >
211 > -Curtis
212 > --
213 > www-redesign@g.o mailing list
214 >
215 >
216 >
217
218 --
219 www-redesign@g.o mailing list

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