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On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 22:48:07 +0100 |
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Martin <m_btrfs@××××××.uk> wrote: |
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|
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> Resend (gmane appears to be losing my email for this list... :-( ) |
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|
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OK, forwarding to the list too (with a bit less snippage than normal, |
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to keep your message intact as I'm relaying) and replying below. |
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|
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> |
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> On 05/06/14 16:35, Martin wrote: |
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> > On 05/06/14 03:00, Duncan wrote: |
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> >> So things should really be simmering back down pretty shortly. |
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> >> =:^) |
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|
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> > Thanks for the good summary. |
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> > |
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> > Yep, I hit all the red "B" blockers... Quickly saw it was upower and |
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> > some confusion with systemd even though I've not selected systemd |
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> > anywhere and... |
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> > |
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> > I was too rushed to investigate much further and so added into my |
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> > /etc/portage/package.mask: |
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> > |
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> > # Avoid pulling in systemd! |
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> > =sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3 |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > Thanks for letting me know to await the news item and for the bits |
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> > to settle... |
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|
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[Just forwarding that part and would delete it as I'm not replying to |
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it, were I not forwarding it for you too. But I'm replying to the |
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below.] |
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|
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> > As for systemd... I'm just wondering if the various heated air being |
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> > generated/wasted is as much rushed arrogance on the part of the |
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> > implementation as due to the grand ripples of change. |
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> > |
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> > The recent kernel DoS debacle due to misusing the long used kernel |
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> > debug showed a certain 'cavalier' attitude to taking over |
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> > functionality without a wider concern or caution to keep projects |
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> > outside of systemd undisturbed... Or at least conscientiously |
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> > minimise disturbance... |
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|
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Agreed, and for quite some time I that attitude was why I was delaying |
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my own switch, tho I expected I'd eventually make it. |
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|
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But backing up a bit to reveal the larger picture... |
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|
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Developers in general aren't always exactly known for their ability to |
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get along with each other or with others or necessarily the wider |
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community. Certainly there's many examples of this in the FLOSS |
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community, and from what I've read of the proprietary development |
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community it's no different, save much of it happens behind closed |
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doors, with public appearances moderated by the PR folks. |
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|
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Actually, I've a personal experience that rather changed my own outlook |
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on things, that I believe explains a lot of the problem here. The |
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following gets a bit franker and more personally honest than most |
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discussions and I'm not really comfortable saying it, but it's |
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important enough not to skip as it illustrates a point I want to make. |
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|
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I don't ordinarily talk about myself in this way, but the fact is, on |
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most tests I score well above 90 percentile IQ. Typically, depending |
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on the test and whether I'm hitting my groove that day or not, I run |
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95-97 percentile on average in most areas (tho in composition I'm |
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relatively low for me, 70s). (FWIW, I've always been slightly |
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frustrated. The MENSA cutoff is supposed to be 98 percentile and I |
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typically score tantalizingly close, but not quite! It'd be nice... |
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=:^( ) In technology and computer areas I'd guess I'm a bit higher, |
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perhaps 98 percentile or so. 95 percentile means about 19 out of 20 |
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people score lower, 98 percentile is 49 out of 50. |
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|
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But, this level of attainment presents its own set of difficulties, |
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difficulties I'm intimately familiar with, but obviously not to the |
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level these /real/ geniuses, the big hero coders of our community, are. |
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|
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I still remember the day I actually realized what dealing with a |
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mentally challenged individual actually was, back in about 8th grade or |
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so. He had come to visit a next door neighbor and we set out to climb |
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a local butte, me not yet understanding his difficulty -- I knew |
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there was /something/ different about him, but I didn't know what, I |
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just accepted it, and him, as basically my equal, as I had been taught |
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to accept and treat everyone. But climbing this butte didn't simply |
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involve a hike, as is the case with many hills/buttes. It involved a |
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bit of relatively minor technical climbing, "chimneying", etc. I |
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had done it with a group previously, but wanted to try it again, for |
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the exercise and challenge. But I didn't want to do it alone, and this |
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guy was agreeable to trying it, so we set out. |
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|
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Everything went well, considering, but it did take somewhat longer than |
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I had planned and our ride back got a bit worried and alerted the |
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authorities. Fortunately, they didn't have to pull us off the mountain |
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(or scrape us from the bottom of the chimney), but we got in a bit of |
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trouble. |
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|
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When I got home, Mom asked me why on earth I'd take a r* guy up a |
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mountain like that. I was flabbergasted! I didn't know! And to think |
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I took him on that climb that was slightly challenging for me |
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(something I'm not sure my Mom knew, and that I didn't tell her!), what |
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must it have been for him? I was perhaps rather fortunate |
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something /didn't/ happen, altho now I realize that despite (or even |
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perhaps because of) his challenge he was remarkably resilient, and may |
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well have picked himself up and continued better than I would have if |
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something had gone wrong and either one of us was hurt |
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|
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That night or perhaps the next day, as I thought about it, I realized |
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what had happened. I was so used to, as a matter of course, dropping |
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to whatever level was required to meet people at their own level and |
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treat them as equal, that I didn't realize I was even doing it. To me |
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it was just the way one interacted with others. What I had originally |
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noticed different about him, that I couldn't put into words before as I |
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simply didn't have the experience or concept, was that I had to drop a |
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bit more than normal, but I was so used to doing it for pretty much |
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everyone, that I didn't even realize I was doing it, or know what it |
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was... until I was forcibly confronted with the fact that this guy was |
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(to others) noticeably below average. But to me he was simply a bit |
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more of the normal that I always did, and that I thought was just the |
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way it was to interact with /anyone/. |
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|
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Since then I've obviously become a bit wiser in the ways of the world, |
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but realistically, I really do seldom meet people /really/ my equal in |
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the real world, and that has really distorted my experience, and to |
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some extent my attitude and picture of the world. |
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|
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But that was only experiencing the one side. I consider myself |
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fortunate to have actually had the opposite experience as well. A bit |
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over a decade ago I was with a Linux and Unix friendly ISP that had a |
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lot of real knowledgeable folks as customers, including one guy that was |
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one of only about a dozen with direct commit privs to one of the BSDs, |
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and several others that were in the same knowledge class. While I |
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may well be at the 95-97 percentile range, for the first time in my |
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life I was well outranked, as several of these guys were at the 99th |
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percentile or better I'm sure, plus they had likely decades of |
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experience I didn't (as a newbie fresh from the MS side of the track) |
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have! |
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|
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That was a humbling experience indeed! To that point, I had been used |
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to being at least /equal/ to pretty much anyone I met, and enough above |
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most that even if I happened to be wrong I knew more about the |
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situation than pretty much anyone else, that I could out-argue them |
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even in my wrongness. |
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|
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Here the situation was exactly reversed, *I* was the know-nothing, the |
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slow guy that everyone else had to wait for while someone patiently |
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explained what was going on so I could follow along! |
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|
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I **VERY** **QUICKLY** learned how to shut up and simply read the |
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discussion as it happened around me, learning from the masters and |
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occasionally asking a question or two, and to be *VERY* sure I could |
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backup any claims I DID make, because if I was wrong, for the first |
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time in my life I was pretty much guaranteed to be called on it, and |
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there was no bluffing my way out of that fix with THESE guys! |
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|
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That had roughly the same level of effect on me as the earlier |
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experience, but at the opposite end, something I rather badly needed as |
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I NEEDED a bit of humbling at that point! |
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|
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Now here's the critical point that I've been so brutally honest to try |
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to present: What happens to the *REAL* 99 percentilers, the guys who |
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*NEVER* have that sort of humbling "OOPS, I screwed up and better |
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shutup! These guys know more than me and if I'm wrong they're not |
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afraid to demonstrate exactly why and how!" ... experience? |
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|
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Unfortunately, a lot of them are a**h***s! Why? Because they're at |
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the top of their class and they know it. Nobody can prove them wrong, |
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and if somehow someone does, they simply don't know how to react, as |
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it's an experience they very rarely have. Even on things they know is |
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simply opinion, they're so used to having absolutely zero peers around |
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that can actually challenge them on it, that they simply don't |
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know /how/ to take a real, honest challenge when it comes. |
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|
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Which BTW is one of the things I find so amazing about Linus Torvalds. |
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I doubt many would argue that he's at the 99 percentile point, yet |
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somehow he's a real person, still approachable, and unlike most folks |
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at his level, actually able to deal with people! |
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|
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At the other end are people like Hans Reiser. He was and is a |
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filesystem genius, and reiser4 was years before its time, yet never got |
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into the kernel despite years of trying, because he was absolutely |
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horrible at interpersonal relations and nobody anywhere near his |
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level could work with him, because he simply didn't know how to be |
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wrong. Unfortunately learning that was literally a fatal experience |
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for his wife. =:^( |
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|
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Take it from someone who is in many areas 90 percentile plus, but who |
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counts that experience sitting at the feet of /real/ masters as perhaps |
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the single most fortunate and critical experience in his live, because |
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he learned how to be wrong, that's NOT an easy lesson to learn, but |
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it's an *EXTREMELY* critical lesson to learn! |
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|
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Think about that the next time you see something like that kernel |
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command-line debug thing go down. Poettering and Sievers are extremely |
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bright men, genius, top of their class. And Poettering in particular |
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is a gifted speaker as well (researching systemd I watched a number of |
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videos of presentations he has done on the subject, he really IS an |
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impressive and gifted speaker!). |
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|
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But, they don't take being wrong well at all, and they have a sense of |
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entitlement due to their sense of ultimate rightness. |
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|
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Never-the-less, however one might dislike and distrust the personality |
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behind them, both systemd and reiserfs (and later reiser4) were/are top |
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of their class for their time, unique and ahead of their time in many |
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ways. There's no arguing that. |
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|
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I didn't and don't like Hans Reiser, but I used his filesystem |
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(reiser3), and still use it on my spinning rust drives altho I've |
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switched to the still not fully mature btrfs on my newer ssds. |
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|
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Unlike Reiser, I don't know so much about Poettering and Sievers |
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personal lives and I surely hope they don't end up where Reiser did for |
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similar reasons. But similar to Reiser, I use their software, systemd, |
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now. And there's no arguing the fact, it's /good/, even if not exactly |
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stable, because they continue to "gray goo" anything in their path, and |
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haven't yet taken the time necessary to truly stabilize the thing. |
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While I never used it, from what I have read, PulseAudio was much the |
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same way as long as Poettering was involved -- it never truly |
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stabilized until he lost interest and left. |
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|
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Unfortunately I think that's likely to be the case with systemd as |
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well; it won't really stabilize until Poettering loses interest and |
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moves on to something else. And for people who depend on stable, I |
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really doubt I'll be able to recommend it (if you can avoid the |
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gray goo, I really don't know if that will remain possible if he |
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doesn't lose interest in another couple years) until then. But it /is/ |
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good, good enough it's taking the Linux world by storm, gray goo and |
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all. If systemd could just be left alone to stabilize for a year or |
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so, I think it'd be good, /incredibly/ good, and a lot of hold outs, |
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like I was until recently, would find little reason not to switch, once |
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it was allowed to stabilize. But when that's likely to happen |
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(presumably after Poettering moves on), I really haven't the foggiest. |
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|
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Meanwhile I'm leading edge enough (I'm running git kde4 and kernel, |
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after all), and (fortunately) good enough at troubleshooting Linux boot |
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issues when I have to, that I decided it was time, for me anyway. |
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|
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So as you can see, while I've succumbed now, I really do still have |
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mixed feelings on it all. |
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|
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But meanwhile, try applying the "do they actually know how to be wrong" |
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theory the next time you see something happening elsewhere, too. It's |
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surprising just how much of the FLOSS-world feuding it explains!... |
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|
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Tho this is one area I'd be I'd be /very/ happy if I /was/ wrong about, |
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and suddenly all these definite top-of-their-field coders started |
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getting along with each other! Well, we can hope, anyway (and while |
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we're at hoping, hope the lesson in being wrong isn't data eating code |
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teaching them how to be wrong, or security code either, as seems to |
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have been the recent case with openssl!). |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - No HTML messages please, as they are filtered as spam. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |