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Those of you kde-ers, particularly kde3-ers (aka stable kde-ers), |
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heads-up! |
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|
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If you aren't aware of the current gentoo kde (especially kde3) |
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situation, you *NEED* to subscribe to the gentoo-desktop list (normally |
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lower activity than here, so it shouldn't be a huge burden), AND check |
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the archives for the last couple months. |
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|
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The short version: kde3 is likely going to be masked, soon, apparently |
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very possibly before any kde4 is ever marked stable. The current plan is |
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to leave kde3 in-tree but masked, probably until early next year, at |
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which point it'll move to an overlay, kde-sunset or similarly named, |
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where it'll be maintained primarily by interested users. |
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|
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If any Gentoo kde3 user has the skills and time to volunteer, |
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particularly if you are /not/ planning to move to kde4 in the near |
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future, they're looking for a Gentoo kde3 dev or two, and/or skilled kde3 |
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users who can devote time to it. |
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|
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The reasoning is multi-fold. Unfortunately, while upstream KDE gets all |
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nasty if you try to call kde3 unmaintained and asegio famously blogged a |
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year or so ago that it would be maintained as long as there were users, |
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apparently, unmaintained is what it's becoming in actual practice, |
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regardless of /what/ upstream kde wants to call it. What's happening is |
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that they aren't strongly encouraging KDE devs to continue to maintain |
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the old kde3 apps. (Note that with KDE as much of FLOSS, many of the devs |
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are unpaid volunteers, and volunteers can hardly be forced, but strong |
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encouragement is certainly possible.) As a result, bugs filed on kde3 |
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apps are increasingly being closed as unmaintained version, upgrade. |
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|
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Of course, qt3 upon which kde3 depends is in similar or even worse shape |
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(except that it was in arguably better shape when it went unsupported, as |
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until then, people had been paid to keep it working, even if they'd have |
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otherwise preferred to be working on the newer versions), apparently not |
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supported any longer by its own (commercial FLOSS) upstream. |
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|
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Unfortunately, all this is complicated by the state of kde4, in many ways |
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a mirror image of kde3 -- specifically like a mirror image in that it's |
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similar, but nicely reversed. kde4 is getting all sorts of developer |
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attention, but again despite what upstream says, it's anything /but/ as |
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stable and smoothly functional and polished as kde3 is. I'm normally an |
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early adopter, running ~arch and in fact often unmasking and even |
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reaching into overlays for fresh versions, often beta or rc, sometimes |
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even live-vcs versions direct from the upstream repositories. |
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|
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Despite all that and despite the fact that upstream kde recommended 4.2 |
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for most users and calls 4.3 fully stable, 4.2.4 was /barely/ getting |
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functional enough to be able to work in it well enough for me to start |
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transferring settings and otherwise getting serious about switching to |
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kde4. Despite the recommendation, in practice, as a user that regularly |
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runs development versions, betas and rcs, 4.2.4 was therefore /barely/ |
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what I'd call early beta. 4.3 (as every kde4 version so far) is markedly |
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better than the previous version, but there's still a LOT of broken |
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functionality, features still rapidly evolving, etc. |
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|
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kde4.3 therefore at what I'd normally consider the late-beta stage. |
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User's who actually used and depended on the previous version for |
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anything beyond basic functionality shouldn't be upgrading yet unless |
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they're prepared to spend HOURS, in this case, DAYS, even WEEKS, |
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upgrading, finding fixes and workarounds for bugs, even switching to |
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alternative software solutions at times when the functionality simply |
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isn't there. I estimate I've spent about 80 hours on the upgrade and |
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reconfiguring, all told. Now, a major version switch is a major version |
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switch, and users WILL need to spend SOME time reconfiguring and |
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adapting, but perhaps 20-40 hours is reasonable, NOT 80! 80 hours, two |
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weeks of full-time 40-hour-week equivalent work, simply indicates how |
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immature and broken some aspects of the project still are, thus |
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necessitating workarounds and the like. (If anybody wants hard examples, |
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I can list the issues I had and have here, but this post is long enough |
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without it. Ask, or check kde's general and kde-linux lists archives for |
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the last couple months.) |
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|
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Or, put another way, there are solid reasons no kde4 is unmasked to |
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gentoo stable yet. |
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|
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As I said, every new kde4 version is solidly improved from the previous |
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one, but by kde3.5, it was very very polished, very very functional, very |
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very fully featured, and very very depended on, at least here. kde4 |
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/was/ basically a ground-up rewrite, and given how mature, functional and |
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well polished kde3 was, they had a *LOT* of ground to cover. So while |
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kde4 *IS* is progressing well and rapidly, it's /just/ /not/ /there/ |
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/yet/. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither has it ever been /re/built in |
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a day. |
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|
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I estimate that given current progress, kde4.5 will finally compare well |
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against 3.5. The further 4.3.x releases should be much like -rc versions |
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normally are, and 4.4, scheduled for early next year, should be much like |
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the infamous x.0 releases that early adopters that didn't hit the betas |
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use, but that many users forego, in favor of x.1, which should be 4.5 |
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(scheduled for 3Q2010, minors are semi-annual and 4.3 was early this |
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month, so 4.5 should be ~1 year from now). Thus, 4.3 is sort of usable |
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for beta tester types -- requiring a lot of user workaround and |
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adjustment, 4.4 should hopefully be reasonably usable by ordinary people |
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(what kde folks claimed 4.2 was, I /do/ expect 4.4 to hit this as they / |
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are/ finally hitting the fit and finish bugs that make a release fit for |
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ordinary users), and 4.5 should finally be a mature product, nearly bug |
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free and usable by nearly everyone. |
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|
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But kde4 is a mirror in another regard as well, as unlike most upgrades, |
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it seems the more advanced a user you are, the more trouble the upgrade |
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tends to be. This seems to be at least partially because the basic/core |
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functionality plus some nice eye candy was implemented first, and it was |
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then released, with the more advanced functionality that kde3 advanced |
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users depended on still broken. Thus, users who seldom change the |
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defaults and are easily impressed when eye candy is made the default, |
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/did/ in many cases find 4.2, or even earlier, usable. It's the folks |
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that depended on 3.5's advanced functionality that are having the worst |
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upgrade problems, because much of that functionality is still only |
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partially working. |
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|
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Regardless, the fact remains that kde4.3 is not yet in a really usable |
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state for many, at least not without DAYS or even WEEKS worth of |
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workarounds, fixes, and tweaks. Of course, that makes the situation with |
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kde3 even more dire, as it now looks likely that Gentoo KDE users, as KDE |
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users on various other distributions before, will likely be rather |
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strongly pushed toward the immature and not yet ready new version, as the |
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older well functioning version goes unsupported before the smooth upgrade |
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path has been established. For Gentoo/KDE, that could well mean users |
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will find 3.x masked before any 4.x at all is keyword-unmasked to stable. |
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|
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The above is further complicated by a couple Gentoo-specific factors. Of |
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course, being a source-based distribution, the quality of the kde3/qt3 |
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sources affects Gentoo users (and therefore devs) more than the typical |
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binary distribution user. Sources that don't build without workarounds |
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can often be handled by the skilled binary distribution devs doing the |
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building for them, yet be entirely unsatisfactory for general Gentoo use |
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because here, every user, including those who don't know much about |
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upstream at all and who lack the skills necessary to do those |
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workarounds, has to build from source. Thus, as the upstream kde3/qt3 |
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sources go stale and fail to build without intervention against newer |
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system libraries and with newer gccs, it's putting ever more strain on |
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the Gentoo/KDE devs and project testers to support them. |
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|
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Second, it seems that no Gentoo/KDE project members are actually still |
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running kde3 as their normal desktop -- they've all migrated to kde4. |
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Thus the urgent request for skilled kde3 users, with or without an |
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interest in becoming a Gentoo dev, to volunteer to help out. (Still, |
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it's worth mentioning that apparently unlike kde upstream, there's |
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effective pressure, and caring devs/testers, enough to /try/ to keep it |
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functioning, regardless of their personal interest in it, because they |
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know users continue to depend on it.) How successful they are at |
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actually attracting such skilled kde3 users, and how long those skilled |
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kde3 users remain using it and how much time they have available to |
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invest in the project, thus /very/ much affects how long and under what |
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conditions Gentoo can continue to provide a usable kde3 to /it's/ users. |
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|
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|
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So where does that actually leave us? |
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|
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Well, to a large extent that depends on a number of factors that remain |
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unknowns ATM. The current Gentoo/KDE kde4 stabilization target is 4.3.1, |
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which should be release in a few weeks. As I said, upstream is finally |
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fixing many of the remaining serious bugs, so this is reasonable, but not |
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assured. There's of course a couple other factors (python issues, etc) |
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involved whether 4.3.1 will actually make stable or not, and even if it |
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does, we're looking at six weeks or so, minimum (I'm not sure when 4.3.1 |
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is scheduled for upstream release, but Gentoo policy is 30 days without |
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bugs, so it'd be a minimum 30 days after that). That's early October at |
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the earliest. If there's complications and/or it has to wait until |
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4.3.2, we're looking at, perhaps, stable kde4 as a Christmas present. |
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|
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Gentoo's kde3 remaining time and status depends very much on the evolving |
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security situation, as well as how successful they are at attracting |
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someone, preferably someone who is or can become a Gentoo dev, to |
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basically dedicate themselves to it. |
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|
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Apparently, upstream maintenance is in severe enough a state (again, |
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despite asegio's very public claim that kde3 will continue to be |
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supported as long as there are users, and despite the fact they get |
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unhappy when people say it's unsupported) that there are very real |
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questions about the ability to provide security updates, as the normal |
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stream of browser vulnerability announcements, etc, continues. Depending |
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on how serious a vuln is and what components are affected, etc, there's |
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some chance that various other distributions will continue to cooperate |
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in coming up with patches, but the list of distributions continuing to |
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ship a full kde3 is continuing to shrink. Still, there's some government |
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and other reasonably large long term kde3 consultancy and support |
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contracts in Europe, so some patches will no doubt continue to flow for |
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another, probably, two years anyway, regardless of mainline distribution |
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and upstream support. |
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|
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But anyway, they're now playing it by ear in terms of security |
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vulnerabilities, and if a big one comes up (for all I know there may |
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already be one that's not yet public), and there's no forthcoming |
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patches, it'll mean rather short-notice kde3 masking, very possibly, |
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according to the summary of the last Gentoo/KDE project meeting as posted |
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in -desktop (the reason people concerned about kde should be following |
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that list, that's where those summaries go, and thus the reason I have |
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all this information and can post it), without a kde4 of any kind being |
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stable yet. |
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|
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It's based on THAT that I decided to post this. People still using and |
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depending on kde3 **NEED** to know what could well be happening to their |
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desktop. |
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|
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According to that summary, they do plan to keep kde3 in-tree for a few |
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more months, probably until early next year some time, before booting it |
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to the kde-sunset or whatever they decide to call it, overlay. However, |
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it's likely to be masked from late this year, as I said, possibly within |
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weeks if the security situation warrants it. |
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|
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That said, if possible, they do want a stable kde4 before kde3 gets |
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masked -- but it's now no longer considered a given. |
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|
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Meanwhile, again according to the summary, the goal before actual removal |
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from tree, is EITHER one of: TWO kde4 "minor" versions stabilized, OR at |
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least kde4.4 out, and at least ONE "minor" version stabilized. "Minor" |
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is in quotes, there, because it's not clear to me exactly what they mean |
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in that regard. "Minor" in normal usage would be 4.3, 4.4, etc, but if |
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that's what's intended, and a 4.3 version does indeed make it to stable, |
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then the two OR conditions look pretty close to identical, since 4.4 |
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would then be the second "minor" version stabilized. Thus, I'm wondering |
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if they actually meant "micro" aka "patch" version, which would fulfill |
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the two-stable-version requirement if 4.3.1 and 4.3.2 are stabilized, |
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thus distinguishing it better from having a 4.4 version out and |
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preferably stable. Significantly, however, that's removal from the tree |
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to the overlay. I know I'm repeating myself but it's important to |
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understand, kde3 could well be masked in September, if events warrant it, |
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and if so, it'll almost certainly mean NO UNMASKED/STABLE KDE IN THE TREE |
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AT ALL for some weeks, until some version of kde4 is deemed to have |
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reached that level! |
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|
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So as I said, currently, they plan to remove kde3 from the tree (where it |
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will have probably completed the last few months in-tree masked), along |
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with all packages depending on kde3, sometime 1H2010 (first half next |
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year). qt3 and all qt3 dependencies will follow shortly thereafter, so |
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likely before this time next year. Both will be headed to overlays, with |
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the viability of the overlays, at least the kde-sunset overlay, almost |
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certainly depending on skilled users, not kde devs. |
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|
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All that can be summarized in one sentence: If you are currently a kde3 |
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user and have NOT yet figured out where you're moving to from there, you |
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**BETTER** get a move on! |
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|
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FWIW, they *DO* plan to announce it on the Gentoo front-page, in the user |
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forum, and via the gentoo tree package news mechanism, before the |
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masking, and likely again before the final move out of tree to the |
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overlay. However, given the time it took /me/ to accomplish the upgrade |
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and the serious trouble I had getting actually working kde4 or suitable |
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non-kde replacements for all the functionality I depend on, AND the usual |
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churn that accompanies a major desktop upgrade of that nature even if |
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everything technically goes off without a hitch, I decided a bit of an |
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additional heads-up warning would likely be appreciated by anyone still |
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on kde3, particularly if they've not yet started preparing for the |
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inevitable and now rather shortly pending. |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |