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leio 10/02/08 21:32:54 |
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Added: 20100208.txt |
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Log: |
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Add raw log for February 8, 2010 meeting |
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Revision Changes Path |
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1.1 xml/htdocs/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20100208.txt |
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file : http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20100208.txt?rev=1.1&view=markup |
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plain: http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20100208.txt?rev=1.1&content-type=text/plain |
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Index: 20100208.txt |
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=================================================================== |
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22:00:44 <Calchan> alright, woodpecker's clock says it's time |
16 |
22:00:51 <Calchan> do we have everybody? |
17 |
22:01:01 <Calchan> Betelgeuse will be late and is excused |
18 |
22:01:02 <scarabeus> yep |
19 |
22:01:18 * ulm is here |
20 |
22:01:26 <leio> here |
21 |
22:01:28 <Calchan> we had leio and solar just a few minutes ago |
22 |
22:01:37 --> FuzzyRay (~pvarner@gentoo/developer/FuzzyRay) has joined #gentoo-council |
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22:02:06 <Calchan> can somebody please set +m whil I take care of some of the logistics? |
24 |
22:02:12 --- leio sets mode +m #gentoo-council |
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22:02:54 <Calchan> oh, I'm just seeing tobias may not be with us today |
26 |
22:03:17 <solar> he voted already in case he can't make it. i take that as being present (not a slacker) |
27 |
22:03:25 <Betelgeuse> here |
28 |
22:03:37 <Betelgeuse> got intoo the car |
29 |
22:03:43 <Calchan> Betelgeuse, wow, I hope you didn't lose your driver's license ;o) |
30 |
22:03:50 <scarabeus> :] |
31 |
22:03:51 <Betelgeuse> let's see how long the battery lasts |
32 |
22:03:57 <Betelgeuse> I am not driving :) |
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22:04:23 <Calchan> ok |
34 |
22:04:25 <Betelgeuse> 3G sucks phone battery like hell |
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22:04:31 <Betelgeuse> and it's already low |
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22:04:42 <Calchan> so we have everybodu except for tobias who will be excused |
37 |
22:04:54 <Calchan> who wants to chair? |
38 |
22:04:57 <Betelgeuse> no |
39 |
22:05:11 <leio> I don't think we have any excusing concept per our current rules, unfortunately |
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22:05:48 <Calchan> leio, we don't, youre right |
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22:06:09 <scarabeus> we might create some, because he at least cared about voting, (so he is not slacking) |
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22:06:23 <leio> we have voted to not being able to change GLEP39 on our own |
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22:06:32 <Betelgeuse> not do that now |
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22:06:53 <Betelgeuse> get into the aganda please |
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22:06:59 <leio> yes please |
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22:07:01 <Calchan> before we go to deep in discussions ... |
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22:07:03 <Calchan> who wants to chair? |
48 |
22:07:07 <Calchan> as usual I volunteer to chair if nobody doesn't, but don't let that stop you |
49 |
22:07:11 <Betelgeuse> so much on plate |
50 |
22:07:28 <Betelgeuse> Calchan: with lack of vlunteers feel free |
51 |
22:07:32 <Betelgeuse> I would if I had a connection |
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22:07:37 <solar> Calchan: just go. Betelgeuse is on limited phone battery. |
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22:07:42 <Calchan> alright then |
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22:07:51 <Calchan> any remarks regarding the agenda? |
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22:08:01 --> Zorry (~zorry@fu/coder/zorry) has joined #gentoo-council |
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22:08:26 <Calchan> ok, let's switch to the first topic then |
57 |
22:08:36 <Calchan> glep 58 |
58 |
22:09:00 <leio> (as for 1.1, I'm logging and will be committing the raw log post-meeting before sleep) |
59 |
22:09:01 <Calchan> I hope you have all read the agenda items and the material that was linked in there in order to make that a quick vote if possible |
60 |
22:09:16 <Calchan> leio, thanks, I forgot abou tthat |
61 |
22:09:25 <scarabeus> i did read them |
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22:09:27 <Betelgeuse> I always log |
63 |
22:09:49 <Calchan> so, does anybdoy have any comment regarding glep 58? |
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22:09:54 <Calchan> if not we'll proceed to vote |
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22:09:55 <Betelgeuse> I read allthe GLEPS during gregkh's talk |
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22:10:08 <Betelgeuse> after which robbat2 committed some stuff |
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22:10:30 <leio> can we change any grammatical things after acceptance or not? :) |
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22:10:32 <solar> Calchan: only thing is that the timestamps seem to differ. You list 6-12 months while robin noted 18months . |
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22:10:33 <ulm> Calchan: shouldn't we vote on 60 first? |
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22:10:42 <ulm> it's a prerequisite of 58 |
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22:11:49 <Calchan> ulm good point |
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22:12:03 <Calchan> so what's the general feeling, do you guys want to vote on 60 forst? |
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22:12:31 <Betelgeuse> fine b me |
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22:12:34 <Calchan> now that ulm says it, it seems logical to me although I don't mind too much |
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22:12:50 <Calchan> let's discuss/vote 60 first then |
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22:12:55 <leio> yes, we can do 60 first as a prerequisite. As for comments about 60 I can't phantom a case where AUX would really have to be duplicated with a new type of entry |
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22:13:16 <leio> as I don't see any of the new ones covering package directories |
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22:13:27 <leio> any files in package directories* |
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22:14:03 <ulm> leio: OTHER covers them |
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22:14:28 <ulm> if they aren't in EXEC anyway |
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22:14:35 <leio> "Choosing a file", point 5 suggests otherwise? |
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22:14:39 <Betelgeuse> Were'n't comments supposed to be before the meeting |
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22:14:48 <Betelgeuse> so that we an just vote today |
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22:15:00 <scarabeus> yeah just voting was supposed |
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22:15:09 <Betelgeuse> so let's do that |
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22:15:29 <Calchan> Betelgeuse is right, leio and ulm if you consider the above to be a blocker then just vote no please, ok? |
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22:15:35 <Calchan> and I vote yes |
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22:15:48 <ulm> I vote yes for glep 60 |
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22:15:50 <Betelgeuse> yes |
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22:15:53 <scarabeus> yes |
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22:16:18 <solar> I vote yes on all of them |
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22:16:26 <Calchan> leio? |
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22:16:42 <Betelgeuse> Calchan: Might be easier to ask if someone objects to any of them |
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22:16:44 <Betelgeuse> I don't |
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22:16:51 <leio> I see what is meant there, but it should be more clearly written |
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22:16:52 <leio> I vote yes |
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22:16:59 <Betelgeuse> Then we can use time more efficiently |
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22:17:18 <Calchan> Betelgeuse, technically we have to vote o each of then individually, and it can be done quickly so let's do it |
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22:17:25 <Betelgeuse> Calchan: ok |
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22:18:03 <Calchan> NeddySeagoon just reminded me that we hae a missing member who sent in his vote by mail |
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22:18:40 <Calchan> but as we don't have a rule for that I told him we can't use votes by mail |
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22:18:48 <Calchan> we'll have to discuss that someday though |
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22:18:52 <Calchan> ok, 60 is go |
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22:18:57 <Calchan> let's vote on 58 now |
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22:19:04 <scarabeus> 58 - yes |
106 |
22:19:09 <ulm> yes for 58 |
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22:19:11 <leio> 58 - yes |
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22:19:14 <Calchan> yes for 58 |
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22:19:18 <solar> yep |
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22:19:42 <Betelgeuse> yes |
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22:19:50 <Calchan> 58 is accepted too |
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22:20:03 <Calchan> let's vote on 59 now |
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22:20:09 <Betelgeuse> yes |
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22:20:14 <solar> yes to all |
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22:20:27 <scarabeus> 59 - yep |
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22:20:32 <ulm> yes for 59 |
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22:20:44 <Calchan> yes here too |
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22:20:51 <leio> yes |
119 |
22:20:55 <solar> Do any council ppl vote no on any of robins gleps? perhaps we can save some time per Betelgeuse suggestion? |
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22:21:06 <scarabeus> solar: we have to actively name it anyway |
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22:21:15 <scarabeus> due to proccess as i see it |
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22:21:27 <leio> I'll be curious how zac will do whirlpool though :) |
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22:21:48 <Calchan> leio, we talked of using external binaries |
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22:22:00 <leio> not important for the meeting |
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22:22:01 <Calchan> 59 is go so we only have 61 left now |
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22:22:05 <Calchan> yes on 61 |
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22:22:28 <Betelgeuse> yes |
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22:22:34 <scarabeus> yup |
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22:22:36 <ulm> abstain on 61 |
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22:23:54 <Calchan> yes from me |
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22:24:37 <leio> no (due to the part covering per-package manifests) |
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22:25:11 <Calchan> we already know solar wnated to vote yes on 61, although if you could confirm that would be nice |
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22:25:59 <Calchan> so we have 4-2 for glep 61 |
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22:26:17 <solar> pita :p |
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22:26:18 <solar> yes |
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22:26:29 <Calchan> solar, that's my second name ;o) |
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22:26:48 <ulm> Calchan: I see 4 yes 1 no 1 abstention |
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22:26:59 <Calchan> ulm, indeed |
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22:27:27 <Betelgeuse> I am almost home. Will move from car to apparatement |
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22:27:35 <Calchan> ulm, I'll scan you a copy of my conting sheet to prove you I did note your abstention ;o) |
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22:27:42 <Calchan> Betelgeuse, ok |
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22:27:57 --> reavertm (~quassel@gentoo/developer/reavertm) has joined #gentoo-council |
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22:28:41 <Calchan> alright, any comments about these gleps? |
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22:29:11 <Calchan> if there aren't any we'll switch to the next topic |
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22:29:26 <Calchan> here's how it will work though: it' |
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22:29:27 <solar> only that he finish editing them to orig spec that we had agreed on |
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22:29:37 --> antarus (~antarus@gentoo/developer/antarus) has joined #gentoo-council |
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22:29:38 <leio> well, I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut, as I'm late with comments ;) |
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22:29:58 <solar> leio: don't let that hold you back. If you have a concern raise it |
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22:30:08 <Calchan> s an open ended discussion, I will ask you to conclude before 2100UTC since we are a few minutes late |
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22:30:24 <Calchan> at which point we'll conclude the meeting wehatever the outcome of the discussion |
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22:30:27 <leio> glep 60 is confusing about AUX |
153 |
22:30:27 <Calchan> agreed? |
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22:30:49 <Calchan> leio, let's discuss that during the open floor |
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22:31:02 <Calchan> ok, let's discuss the VDB issue |
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22:31:18 <Calchan> I have proosed a few topics, but feel free to add more |
157 |
22:31:37 <Calchan> Do we care about VDB caches currently not being compatible across |
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22:31:38 <Calchan> package managers? |
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22:32:09 <scarabeus> would be nice to have it same, at least for us (read me) who have both pkgcore and portage :] |
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22:32:12 <solar> While it would be nice. I would leave that up to the pkg-mgr maintainers |
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22:33:31 <Calchan> the point is if we don't care there's nothing that prevents package manager maintainers to experiment with various stuff without needing a timestamp or other mechanism |
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22:33:46 <Calchan> it would make many people lives easier though |
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22:34:24 <Calchan> here ws another question, but we can still discuss the previous one at the same time |
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22:34:42 <Calchan> Do we want to develop a way to work with more than one type of VDB cache (similar to Brian's proposal or not) or do we prefer investing our time into developing a new VDB? |
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22:34:54 <solar> neither |
166 |
22:35:04 <Calchan> solar, can you expand a bit? |
167 |
22:35:32 <solar> if you read up to the last thing I said. It still holds true for this statement |
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22:36:13 <solar> but to go into more details. The VDB is imo outside of our scope at this time. it's not PMS. The PMS ppl clearly don't want it in. I happen to think they are right. |
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22:36:44 <Calchan> solar, talkig about PMS, is a VDB cache EAPI material, i.e. should it be defined in PMS? |
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22:36:59 <solar> No I don't think so. |
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22:37:10 <leio> how can it even be... |
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22:37:18 <leio> (EAPI material) |
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22:37:19 <solar> portage for example allows the use of more then one type of vdb backend. |
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22:37:31 <solar> and I would hate to limit them to 1 type. |
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22:38:04 <solar> so if we define anything at this time. I feel we would harm future growth more then help it |
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22:38:28 <Calchan> leio, agreed, on the other hand I think it's worth thinking whether even not being EAPI material if it shouldn't be in PMS anyway |
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22:38:31 <leio> We keep trying to slap things under EAPIs that can't be, they cover packages and to provide an upgrade path. That doesn't work for an uniform all-covering cache |
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22:38:49 <Calchan> solar, on of the remark was about it not being versioned, meaning that it could be |
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22:39:19 <leio> (nor profiles/ in my opinion, but that's some old somewhat never-ending discussion) |
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22:39:28 <Calchan> leio, that all boild down to: should PMS only cover EAPIs or can it be broader? |
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22:39:34 <leio> the movement is towards not relaying on VDB in packages, I think that's good |
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22:39:43 --> PSYCHO___ (~scarabeus@gentoo/developer/scarabeus) has joined #gentoo-council |
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22:39:43 --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to PSYCHO___ |
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22:40:00 <leio> to actually support these other types of VDB in portage (built_with_use == bad, etc) |
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22:40:07 <-- scarabeus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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22:40:43 --- PSYCHO___ is now known as scarabeus |
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22:40:46 <leio> I think package manager authors should be able to innovate to come up with the most efficient cache |
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22:40:48 <Calchan> so another question now: what do you think about Brian's proposal in general? |
189 |
22:41:01 <Calchan> both form the necessity and implementation point of view |
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22:41:18 --> [mrf] (~mrf@unaffiliated/mrf/x-6141039) has joined #gentoo-council |
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22:41:35 <scarabeus> i think we need such thing |
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22:42:57 <Calchan> scarabeus, thanks, any other opinions? |
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22:43:10 <scarabeus> the proposal sounds ok to me (thats why i wanted to talk about it :P) but i am not exactly what you would call expert in that area :] |
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22:44:11 <Calchan> mine is that there doesn't seem to be any harm caused by it, so if it helps some of us I would tend to say why not |
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22:45:33 <solar> it's outside of our scope. But personal feeling is there is no harm in updating the mtime of /var/db/pkg |
196 |
22:46:03 <leio> yes, why not, while we are sort of stuck with current VDB and if it increases performance, but not sure if I'd want to decide on that if package manager/tool authors could just agree on it :) |
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22:47:13 <Calchan> leio, agreed here, I'm looking forward to the day they can all talk without us, on the other hand I consider them disagreeing a healthy thing |
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22:47:53 <leio> if that leads to a best solution with discussions.. |
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22:48:00 <Calchan> so I didn't think we could reach that stage, but are we ready to make a decision on Brian's proposal? |
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22:48:11 <solar> no |
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22:48:15 <-- reavertm has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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22:48:26 <Calchan> solar, I was going to add the following: |
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22:48:42 <solar> still no. This is an open discussion. Not a vote :p |
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22:49:31 <scarabeus> solar: he dont want to hear yes/no i guess :] that is not point of open floor :D |
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22:50:03 <Calchan> scarabeus, this isn't the open floor it's topic 6 |
206 |
22:50:44 <scarabeus> i am bit slightly off :P |
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22:50:49 <scarabeus> dont bite me :P |
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22:50:51 <scarabeus> mea culpa |
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22:52:42 <scarabeus> not open floor but open discussion |
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22:52:44 <scarabeus> :] |
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22:53:13 <solar> Calchan: did you have something else to add? |
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22:53:39 <Calchan> to conclude with this my opinion is that I would be happy that any package manager who wants to join in this vdb timestamp feature is welcome to do so |
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22:53:51 <Calchan> solar, I was typing, I'm a bit slow today ;o) |
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22:54:04 <scarabeus> ok so my statement on the matter is that: If zac implemented it in portae and was the same implemented in pkgcore i would be happy person so i would like to see that happen |
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22:54:06 <solar> The question was "but are we ready to make a decision on Brian's proposal" (for that statement alone. I'm saying no. No as it's outside of the scope.) If the VDB is going to be documented it's on a per pkg mgr basis at this point. We cant impose rules unless all the VDB equivs get a unified format.spec. Then that brings us back to hampering innovation. |
216 |
22:54:25 <Calchan> if any of you want to summarize his opinion now it would help the poor guy who is going to make the meeting summary |
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22:54:58 <Calchan> solar, thanks, that's a nice summary from you |
218 |
22:55:19 <Calchan> solar, and btw it's perfectly ok to answer no to any of my questions ;o) |
219 |
22:55:20 <leio> on the other hand, if some package manager isn't participating in the vdb timestamp feature, it means it is not usable if user is using both a package manager not doing it, and one doing it |
220 |
22:55:45 <solar> but it's not a bad idea. Zac and ferringb are welcome to do it. think they are even already |
221 |
22:55:48 <Calchan> leio, I would say then it's up to the users of this package manager to lobby the maintainers to ad the feature |
222 |
22:56:15 <leio> meanwhile it breaks everything for the participating package manager or something |
223 |
22:56:34 <ulm> it's only a problem if they use more than one pkg manager at the same time |
224 |
22:57:28 <Calchan> ulm, in the future it would only be a problem if they use one package manager that doesn't have the feature alibng with others |
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22:57:47 <ulm> right |
226 |
22:57:49 <Calchan> ulm, as long as they use only package managers that have the feature they can use as many as they want |
227 |
22:58:25 <Calchan> are we done on this topic? |
228 |
22:58:59 <leio> not sure how one would summarize this topic in a meeting summary, indeed :) |
229 |
22:59:17 <Calchan> leio, if you want I'll take care of it |
230 |
22:59:37 <Calchan> let's conclude the meeting then |
231 |
22:59:49 <Calchan> actions |
232 |
23:00:05 <Calchan> leio, do you want to investigate this AUX issue? |
233 |
23:00:12 --> PSYCHO___ (~scarab@gentoo/developer/scarabeus) has joined #gentoo-council |
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23:00:13 --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to PSYCHO___ |
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23:00:20 <Calchan> although we did accept the glep we can always ask for some minor tuning |
236 |
23:00:30 <leio> what kind of acceptance we gave to these gleps? Can they be changed anymore at all? |
237 |
23:00:50 <Calchan> leio, we are the council, we have powerz ;o) |
238 |
23:00:51 <solar> leio: yes. That was one of our conitions |
239 |
23:00:59 <Betelgeuse> leio: even GLEP 1 should be updated |
240 |
23:01:28 <solar> they have to be fixed up before changes are pushed around in the tree. |
241 |
23:01:38 <leio> I will talk with Robin |
242 |
23:01:42 <Calchan> any other actions for next meeting that I'm not seeing? |
243 |
23:01:47 <solar> we really rushed them. It's sad robin was not here |
244 |
23:02:19 <Betelgeuse> I wouldn't say the time available for people to discuss rushing. |
245 |
23:02:49 <Calchan> 7.2 Who takes care of the summary and log for this meeting? When? |
246 |
23:02:58 <Calchan> I can do the summary if that helps |
247 |
23:03:10 <Calchan> unless leio or anybody else wnats to do it |
248 |
23:03:15 <solar> Betelgeuse: rushing as in robin did not finish documenting everything in the gleps. Some of the data needs to be yanked etc. |
249 |
23:03:58 <Calchan> wo will commit the logs and when? |
250 |
23:04:03 <leio> as said before, I will commit the log today |
251 |
23:04:09 <Calchan> leio, ok thanks |
252 |
23:04:12 <leio> (well, after midnight my time) |
253 |
23:04:37 <Calchan> next meeting: can we already agree on a date/time or do we discuss it off-list? |
254 |
23:05:00 <scarabeus> 1 or 8 |
255 |
23:05:07 <scarabeus> i cant 15. |
256 |
23:05:16 <scarabeus> and then 22 and 29 again i can |
257 |
23:05:20 <Betelgeuse> I don't have travelling schedule for Mars |
258 |
23:05:27 <Calchan> I'd prefer 8, 3 weeks to organize a meeting is short |
259 |
23:05:40 <solar> I like the 8th next month. It's a full 4 weeks away. |
260 |
23:05:43 <scarabeus> yeah 8 i can |
261 |
23:05:46 <Calchan> although I did it this time I had to rush it |
262 |
23:05:50 <ulm> 8 ok for me too |
263 |
23:06:19 <Calchan> ok let's put 8 as a tentative date and confirm that on list during this coming week but no later, ok? |
264 |
23:06:25 <scarabeus> ack |
265 |
23:06:31 <Betelgeuse> 8 is fine |
266 |
23:06:38 <Calchan> same time as usual I guess, which is 1 hour earlier than today |
267 |
23:06:50 <Calchan> i.e. 1900 UTC |
268 |
23:07:02 <Calchan> Who will follow-up discussions and prepare the agenda for the next meeting? |
269 |
23:07:34 <Calchan> as usual I volunteer |
270 |
23:07:44 <Calchan> but feel free to take that off my plate |
271 |
23:07:50 <scarabeus> if is it just reading the mails and putting it together i can help (hey i can at least try :]) |
272 |
23:08:08 <Calchan> scarabeus, ok thanks, let's be in touch about this then |
273 |
23:08:46 <scarabeus> ok my mail is obvious i live in CET and i am on irc most of the time expect monday and thursday :] |
274 |
23:09:01 <Calchan> scarabeus, there's a lot of dicussing with people in the background too though, if only to make sure they'll answer on the lists |
275 |
23:09:19 <solar> scarabeus: but mondays around 1900 UTC work ok for you in general? |
276 |
23:09:32 <scarabeus> yep, basicaly yes |
277 |
23:09:40 <scarabeus> i have 3 hours gap there :] |
278 |
23:10:04 <Calchan> are you guys ok with opening the floor and ending the meeting? |
279 |
23:10:12 <Betelgeuse> yes |
280 |
23:10:14 <scarabeus> yep |
281 |
23:10:39 <ulm> yes |
282 |
23:10:39 <leio> is that open floor discussion not part of a meeting anymore? (for what to commit as raw log) |
283 |
23:11:15 <Calchan> leio, feel free to commit whatever's relevant to your eyes, bytes aren't that expensive these days |
284 |
23:11:52 <leio> well, that's just why I ask right now, it has more meaning (are council members supposed to try to stick around and participate, etc) |
285 |
23:12:04 <leio> anyway, yeah, lets remove moderation, you are chair and say when meeting is over :) |
286 |
23:12:16 <scarabeus> :]] |
287 |
23:12:44 * solar declares it lunchtime then cya. |
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23:13:08 --- scarabeus sets mode -m #gentoo-council |
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23:13:14 <scarabeus> so lets see :] |
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23:13:28 <antarus> we need tree signing like yesterday |
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23:13:33 <antarus> plz2make it happen |
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23:13:41 <antarus> I don't even care if it is osprey signing post commit |
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23:13:43 <antarus> I'll take anything |
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23:14:11 <solar> done |
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23:19:12 <scarabeus> its quite quiet open floor |
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23:19:21 <scarabeus> i hear the pin to drop :P |
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23:19:47 <ulm> scarabeus: don't disturb the silence |
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23:20:31 <NeddySeagoon> scarabeus, close the meeting and do a runner |
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23:21:14 <scarabeus> :] |