[gentoo-commits] gentoo commit in xml/htdocs/foundation/en/minutes/2008: august2008.txt

[Roy Bamford (neddyseagoon)]

neddyseagoon    08/09/01 20:50:45

  Added:                august2008.txt august2008.txt and updated index.xml
                        to match Roy Bamford (NeddySeagoon)
  Log:
  

Revision  Changes    Path
1.1                  xml/htdocs/foundation/en/minutes/2008/august2008.txt

file : http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/foundation/en/minutes/2008/august2008.txt?rev=1.1&view=markup
plain: http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/foundation/en/minutes/2008/august2008.txt?rev=1.1&content-type=text/plain

Index: august2008.txt
===================================================================
21:00  * NeddySeagoon calls the meeting to order - roll call, tsunam and fmccor.  wltjr said he would not attend 
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, you had to vote in a trustee election as well
21:00  * fmccor here
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, wakey wakey
21:00 < musikc|laptop> i honestly dont recall if i did or not
21:01 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: I'm around =)
21:01 <@NeddySeagoon> heh.  OK we are quorate ... lets go. Agenda is in /topic 
21:01 <@fmccor> rane or Jorge would know --- they were the election officials.
21:01 <@NeddySeagoon> I think we can skip  Introductions
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> So, Actions From the Last Meeting...
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> Gentoo Foundation Banking - tsunam
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> care to say a few words ?
21:02 <@tsunam> paypal finally removed the old bank accounts. Need to check with them and see if there's anything the need now to unlock the account fully
21:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Does our paypay work ?
21:03 <@tsunam> we can accept donations
21:03 <@tsunam> can't send out
21:03 <@NeddySeagoon> paypal*
21:03 <@tsunam> currently
21:03 <@tsunam> they've been less then helpful in working with me on this :(
21:03 <@NeddySeagoon> do we owe anyone anything ?
21:04 <@tsunam> just trustee's some money
21:04 <@tsunam> wltjr 10-20 bucks he's not asked for yet, and me for the lawyers fee's still
21:04 <@NeddySeagoon> Needs fixed then, we don't want to mix our own and Foundation funds
21:05 <@NeddySeagoon> What about a bank account ?
21:05 <@tsunam> Last I heard was that the bank we wanted to go to was an online bank but required someone in new mexico to sign
21:05 <@tsunam> that was for compass was my understanding
21:06 <@fmccor> I didn't know they needed anyone to go there.  Hm.
21:06 <@tsunam> I'll have to reread the thread, but I could of sworn someone said that it was a requirement
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> Please tsunam.  Do you have the cheque for our funds from Grant ? 
21:07 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: still with grant
21:07 <@tsunam> he doesn't want to pass it on until the bank account is setup
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Have you asked for it ?
21:07 <@tsunam> sort of a chicken and the egg thing...
21:08 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: aye
21:08 <@NeddySeagoon> Don't we need it for opening the account ? 
21:08 <@tsunam> I've asked for it and that was the response I got
21:08 <@fmccor> Yeah.  Bank probably wants funds to set up an account. :(
21:08 <@tsunam> *nods*
21:08 <@tsunam> again assumes that check is still good
21:08 <@NeddySeagoon> So, fix paypay and use some of those funds
21:09 <@tsunam> assuming they don't want a working bank account *laughs*
21:09 <@NeddySeagoon> heh.
21:09 <@fmccor> Grant could cash it and write another.
21:09 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, are you going to have time to get onto this ?
21:11 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: honestly, unknown. I can look into compass again see if I was mistaken about needing to be in nm for it
21:11 <@NeddySeagoon> You have an incentive, we owe you money.
21:11 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, if we don't need to go to NM, can you open an account too ?
21:11 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: should be able to if no need to go to nm
21:12 <@tsunam> as its just filling out paperwork
21:12 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Care to estimate a date for checking the thread and applying for an account if no travel is needed ?
21:13 <@fmccor> They have an on-line site.  Might not need to check the thread.
21:13 <@tsunam> two weeks out
21:13 <@NeddySeagoon> Thats our next meeting - deal!
21:13 <@fmccor> That's fine with me.
21:14 <@NeddySeagoon> Next - Trustees and Foundation Article For the GMN - NeddySeagoon
21:14 <@NeddySeagoon> I've done a bit, fmccor has done a bit, tsunam ? 
21:14 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: working on it
21:15 <@NeddySeagoon> Should we leave this until we are up to strenght.  A sort of meet the new Trustees too, or should we run it with 3 and a vacancy list ?
21:16 <@fmccor> We could do it in pieces, or would you rather make it one dedicated GMN issue?
21:16 <@tsunam> I'd rather have all the slots filled
21:16 <@fmccor> Otherwise, I'd leave it, I think.
21:16 <@tsunam> before that
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets fill all the slots first then
21:17 <@fmccor> Yes.
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Next ... Trustees and Councillors - NeddySeagoon to Add Clause to draft bylaws
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> I've done that, its ugly but its there 
21:18 <@fmccor> Where?  I must have just read over it.
21:18 <@NeddySeagoon> No individual shall serve as a Gentoo Foundation Trustee and Gentoo Council Member concurrently
21:19 <@NeddySeagoon> under Article V Trustees
21:19 -!- fragalot [n=services@gentoo/user/FamousToaster] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
21:19 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, ^^
21:19 <@fmccor> I must be looking at an out-of-date version.
21:20 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, see the link in /topic
21:21 <@NeddySeagoon> Next ... International Licencing For Gentoo Merchandise
21:21 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, you were going to check with our lawyers
21:22 <@fmccor> I'm blind I guess.
21:22 <@fmccor> OK.
21:23 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, ^^
21:23 <@fmccor> First, our trademarks lawyer is pro bono and always has been and always will be.  When we get our funds in shape, we should spend a little money ($200)
21:24 <@fmccor> to get the address right on them.
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> Agreed 
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^
21:24 <@fmccor> Second, as I said, this lawyer knows as much about internal licensing agreements I do.
21:24 <@tsunam> hmm
21:24 <@tsunam> the 200 dollars or?
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> internal/international ?
21:24 <@tsunam> ah okie
21:25 <@fmccor> international. :)
21:25 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, yes - to fix our trademarks
21:25 <@tsunam> we've started it already for the international 
21:25 <@tsunam> so might as well finish it properly
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, for the avoidance of doubt, do you agreed to spending $200 to fix our trademarks ?
21:26 <@fmccor> She was going to check around with the firm to see if they could do it pro bono and let me know if they could.  I haven't heard anything.
21:26 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: yep
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, Is it polite to ask whats happening ?
21:27 <@fmccor> Renat had a couple other leads, so I'll get back with him and chase them down (he knows some people who actually do that sort of thing)
21:27 <@NeddySeagoon> Ah ok.  
21:27 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, contact with Renat for the next meeting ?
21:28 <@fmccor> I haven't had a chance to, but it's on my list.  He should be back at Harvard, so it's just a matter of how quickly he responds.
21:28 <@fmccor> I'll start on that after the holiday on Monday.
21:28 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, thats out of our control ... but you can do your bit before the next meeting ?
21:28 <@fmccor> Yes.
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> Next ... Open Bugs Assigned to Trustees
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> 177966 Clarify Foundation page on external entities (on hold for bylaws)
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> Nothing to add
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> 217511 The Gentoo Store is Out of Date - musikc
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, your turn to say a few words please
21:30 <@NeddySeagoon> !bug 217511
21:30 < Willikins> NeddySeagoon: https://bugs.gentoo.org/217511 "The Gentoo Store is Out of Date"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; NEW; neddyseagoon@g.o:trustees@g.o
21:30 < musikc|laptop> dberkholz is pr lead and has not had time to address the request about PR assisting
21:30 < musikc|laptop> if you check devaway his wife is having a baby so i do not wish to push him at this time
21:31 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I understand he is going to be busy
21:31 < musikc|laptop> he should be back around next week
21:32 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, He will be a wreck - the sleepless nights just starting
21:32 < quantumsummers|c> any interest in new t-shirt designs?
21:32 < musikc|laptop> you're so encouraging :-P
21:32 <@NeddySeagoon> Can we ask anyone else in PR ?
21:33 < quantumsummers|c> perhaps a design contest
21:33 < musikc|laptop> pr is ... a small group at present
21:33 < musikc|laptop> when is the next trustee meeting?
21:33 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, Sure - lots of things. We need to get CDs into the store.  We pulled 2006.0 a few months ago
21:34 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop 14 or 15 of September, depending if we go to Mondays as others wanted
21:35 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, The problem is running the store and keeping it current
21:35 < musikc|laptop> ok, i can either get information from dberkholz or draft something up on my own as i do not think he'd take issue with that.
21:35 < musikc|laptop> the day of the week will be an issue for me depending on the time of day
21:36 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop 19:00 UTC.  we are spread over 8 time zones
21:37 < musikc|laptop> for now that is noon my time and that i can work
21:37 <@NeddySeagoon> ok.  For the next meeting then.
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 4.   Move #gentoo-trustees away from freenode  ?
21:38 < musikc|laptop> ill poke you or tsunam for more details offline, can come up something within 2 weeks
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, ok
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> Don't delegate to tsunam :)
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 4.   Move #gentoo-trustees away from freenode  ?
21:38 < musikc|laptop> nah, not delegate, ask questions
21:39 <@fmccor> I'd rather not move unless you have a reason to.
21:39 <@NeddySeagoon> This came in after a Gentoo developer was klined
21:39 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: I think moving parts of #gentoo away from freenode without everyone is seperating the organization not strengthing it =/
21:39 <@fmccor> tsunam, agreed
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> I don't think we should move either, unless the rest of Gentoo decides to. That seems to have dies down now
21:40 <@fmccor> Doesn't matter much to me where we are, but we should all be the same place.
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, agreed
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> Anyone want to add anything ?
21:41 < quantumsummers|c> not I
21:41 < musikc|laptop> i had a question about the conflict of interest bit. why is it a conflict to care about legal/accounting AND technical?
21:41 <@tsunam> I would like to add that I continue to be dismayed by what occured and wish it be known that I'd like to see gentoo move away from freenode
21:41 <@fmccor> musikc|laptop, Where?
21:41 < musikc|laptop> oh hell, ya i agree with tsunam. sorry thought it was general question time.
21:42 <@fmccor> No, we're just getting to the fun part. :)
21:42 <@NeddySeagoon> OK now the bit you have all been waiting for 5. Adoption of draft Foundation Bylaws
21:42 <@fmccor> Is version 7 the correct one?
21:42  * tsunam points to musikc|laptop's question
21:43 <@NeddySeagoon> The latest draft of the bylaws are at http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/docs/FoundationBylawsProposed_7.xml
21:43 <@tsunam> can we address that first before working on the bylaws quickly
21:43  * musikc|laptop figures its viewed as not a relevant question
21:43 <@fmccor> Where did you mean conflict of interest?
21:43 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I can't think of an issue just now unless its a council application for funds and the trustees voting on it
21:44 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon amended article V to say you cant be on both, i asked tsunam why and he said likely a conflict of interest. im wondering why.
21:44 < musikc|laptop> iirc wolf is the only person who was on both and i dont recall anyone having an issue with that so why now? what has changed?
21:45 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, it says you can't be on both.  Consider what whould happen if the trustees were a subset of council
21:46 <@NeddySeagoon> council asks for funding or something,, council votes for it
21:46 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, again, someone was on both in the past and it was never an issue. what has changed that made it an issue?
21:47 <@NeddySeagoon> maybe a circumstance did not arise in the past for it to become an issue
21:47 < musikc|laptop> wouldnt the person who thinks its a good idea still think its a good idea whether they proposed it or someone else did?
21:47 <@fmccor> It's probably not.  This just makes sure.
21:47 <@NeddySeagoon>  Consider what whould happen if the trustees were a subset of council.   council asks for funding or something,, council votes for it
21:47 < quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon's point  regarding the board v. council COI is valid, the trustees of a foundation are usually  extra-organizational, though a council person can sit as an officer 
21:47 < musikc|laptop> i dont see the sense and am seeking that fmccor
21:48 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, but they arent a subset?
21:48 < musikc|laptop> it sounds like we're saying we dont trust people
21:48 <@fmccor> No, we're a completely separate entity.
21:48 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Not today they are not but if people were allowed to serve on both, it could happen
21:48 < quantumsummers|c> this separation is standard in npos
21:49 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, as the devs and/or foundation votes ppl in wouldnt the community be voting for whom they wanted?
21:49 < musikc|laptop> so shouldnt we let the community make that decision?
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> The council and foundation were set up as seperate entities.  How would you keep them seperate ?
21:49 < musikc|laptop> i just dont see the point if other than to say 'we cant trust people to make good decisions in the best interest of gentoo'
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Its a segregation of duties issue I think
21:49 < quantumsummers|c> this is generally considered a legal issue
21:49 <@fmccor> musikc|laptop, when we are here doing what we are doing right now, we are not part of gentoo at all.
21:50 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, and thats why i said foundation votes
21:50 < musikc|laptop> i like the right to vote for who i think is best for the role
21:50 < musikc|laptop> and instead am being told that one person is not capable of doing two things
21:50 < musikc|laptop> which i do not believe, otherwise i wouldnt want that person doing either thing if they were not capable
21:51 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, The council is 7 people and the Trustees 5.  The original intent of seperation would be lost.
21:51 < musikc|laptop> it seems like a restriction of our options for reasons of 'what if' and the what if has never happened, even when there was over lap so i do not see the need to make the change at present
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> I don't see it as a change.  The Foundation has never had bylaws yet, so they can't be changed
21:52 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, no the original intent was to have council focus on technical direction and trustees on legal/accounting. that doesnt change just b/c one person could be capable of doing both or else we as the community have voted very poorly if one person was only capable of one position yet we voted them in for both
21:52 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, it is a change when you are restricting who i can vote for a role
21:53 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, If someone wants to swap thats fine.
21:53 < musikc|laptop> i think there are qualified people on trustees and council presently that could do very well both teams, but you are saying that a person is only capable of doing one.
21:54 < musikc|laptop> it is an artificial limitation and a removal of my rights to vote who i think is best suited for any role
21:54 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Nope. Its not about capabilities
21:54 < quantumsummers|c> it is reasonable, however, to simply disallow the Council president from being a trustee for the term
21:54 <@NeddySeagoon> Its segregation of duties
21:54 < musikc|laptop> how is it about capabilities?
21:55 < musikc|laptop> again, you are telling me that i cannot find one person capable of being BOTH a trustee and a council person and i disagree, it is my right to vote for whom i feel is the best fit
21:56 < musikc|laptop> the segregation of duties is done by having two teams, however it is a limitation to say that a person must be segregated physically, that a person cannot have business sense and technical sense, or that cannot be trusted to use both wisely
21:56 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, you may nominate who you like. They must choose which body they serve on 
21:56 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, i feel you miss my point entirely. yes i may vote for who i like, but now for ONE team only
21:57 <@fmccor> Consider, suppose the council asks the foundation for funding, or something.  The conflict arises if there is a council member on the board.
21:57 < musikc|laptop> given how few people even run for trustees you are removing possible and capable people from the selection if they wish to also serve in the technical direction.
21:57 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Its not a new point.  It was dicussed at the last meeing and the action was placed on me to update the bylaws draft, which I have done.
21:58 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, the notion of conflict of interest here is silly imo. a person already thinks a certain way, so you're saying that they would think differently if they were on both teams or that YOU cannot trust someone to make a rational decision b/c he was involved in the desire for something as well as the means to say yes i agree with my desire?
21:58 < musikc|laptop> its foolhearty at best
21:58 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, so again my original response to tsunam is accurate, that my question is not relevant, that being because you have already decided?
21:59 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I propose that the bylaws are adoped as written and reviewed prior to the Feb 2009 Trustee Election
21:59 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, I'll so move if you like.
21:59 < quantumsummers|c> the simple compromise here is to allow councilors to have seats on the board of trustees, while disallowing the council pres from sitting on the board.  there is precedent for this, as well as NeddySeagoon's complete separation.  However, it is generally considered bad practice to allow an executive director ( i.e. council pres.) to be on the board.
21:59 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, The trustees decided at the last meeting, not me personally
22:00 <+jmbsvicetto> I see I forgot your meeting again :|
22:00 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, i didnt say you personally, you in the sense of trustees.
22:00 < musikc|laptop> so if i understand correctly the trustees do not wish to hear my concern with this any longer?
22:00 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, thank you for the clarification
22:00 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, Right now it's better to go with what we have.
22:01 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, We can always amend if a case can be made.
22:01 < quantumsummers|c> I agree, merely pointing out options
22:01 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, are my questions and comments not a case made or just not deemed worthy?
22:02 < musikc|laptop> a perfect case is... it worked in the past. Gentoo is the proof of concept.
22:02 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I hear your concern.  There will be no elections until Feb 2009, so we have a chance to change the bylaws if needed.  In practice, we are after a moving target, so I see bylaws updates happening at least twice a year to start with
22:02 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, so i must wait until new trustee elections to hope i can vote for someone who isnt already on council, thus sacrificing the technical direction of gentoo for the legal one?
22:03 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Past performace is no indicator of future performace
22:03 < quantumsummers|c> could start a bug regarding this specific issue, then update the bylaws before the election
22:03 < musikc|laptop> and random 'what ifs' are no indicator of future performance
22:04 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, i thought it made sense to discuss it before it went into action instead of trying to revoke something after the fact
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Nope, the bylaws can be changed quite quickly, once we have some
22:04 < musikc|laptop> http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/bylaws.xml
22:04 < musikc|laptop> are those not bylaws?
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, they were never adopted - so No, they are no
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> not*
22:05 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, thank you for clarifying
22:05 <@NeddySeagoon> np
22:06 < musikc|laptop> so i seem to understand that you would rather fix something after the fact then correct it before it bec omes the fact?
22:06 < quantumsummers|c> musikc|laptop: I agree there needs to be discourse on this subject, but I understand the immediate necessity of adopting bylaws for legal reasons
22:06 < musikc|laptop> so remove that one part and implement the rest. it is one sentence that appears thrown in anyways.
22:07 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, The bylaws as adopted will never be perfect. Its a moving target which it why its taken several years to get here.  Yes. I prefer something imperfect rather than nothing
22:07 < musikc|laptop> there is no discussion prior or after the sentence that explain it, just a matter of fact statement that i ask be removed so we can visit the topic
22:08 < musikc|laptop> what is the harm about commenting out one sentence?
22:08 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Lets ask fmccor and tsunam 
22:08 <@fmccor> Discussion was last meeting, don't recall how much.
22:08 < quantumsummers|c> this may be a good time for a vote of the trustees with a provision for future re-consideration of the issue (a bug)
22:08 < musikc|laptop> i disagree and trustees seem to be saying 'we can change it later' but im asking that we just comment out one sentence and discuss whether it should be added later
22:08 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, please leave them as proposed.
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ??
22:09 <@tsunam> sec
22:09 <@tsunam> someone was at the door
22:09 <@tsunam> reading scroll back
22:10 <@tsunam> so suggestion is to remove the can't be trustee and council?
22:10 <@NeddySeagoon> yes
22:10 < musikc|laptop> i ask that it be commented out and the remaining implemented
22:10 < musikc|laptop> id like to discuss the matter further as though NeddySeagoon and fmccor tried to explain i cannot understand the why
22:10 <@tsunam> hmm
22:11 <@tsunam> I'd rather get something implemented...if it takes removing that to get it then yes
22:11 <@fmccor> It doesn't take that.
22:12 <@fmccor> The three of us are going to vote on the proposal.
22:12 < musikc|laptop> as i understand it, fmccor and NeddySeagoon do not trust people to make the right decision for two teams, only being capable to do what is right for one team.
22:12 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Its only we three that vote on it.  No changes are required. I would like us all to be in favour though
22:12 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Its not a trust issue at all
22:13 < quantumsummers|c> its a legal issue
22:13 <@tsunam> I'd prefer it to stay, but then it also potentially limits who can be a trustee and we all know its already hard to find people who are willing to bet trustee's
22:13 < musikc|laptop> i dont see how its a legal issue
22:13 < musikc|laptop> i work for a large public company and people on our executive board are also on our board of directors
22:13 <@fmccor> tsunam, It limits it by 7 out of the entire Foundation. :)
22:14 <@NeddySeagoon> Would someone propose a motion on the proposed bylaws please
22:14 < quantumsummers|c> right, but is the CEO on the board of trustees, musikc|laptop?
22:14 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, you yoursle wanted to be on both
22:14 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, 6.  There is a councilor who is not a Foundation member
22:14 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, who is our CEO in Gentoo?
22:14 <@fmccor> And it was a mistake.
22:14 < quantumsummers|c> that would be the council pres
22:15 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, there is no council president iirc
22:15 < quantumsummers|c> equiv to executive director, thought that was vaiper
22:15 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, Gentoo has a huge separtation between the distro and the foundation
22:15 < musikc|laptop> nope, they are all listed as member
22:15 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, I move we accept the bylaws as proposed in http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/docs/FoundationBylawsProposed_7.xml
22:15 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, thank you 
22:15 < quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon: this I know, and agree with a strong separation
22:16 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^
22:16 < Philantrop> quantumsummers|c: vapier isn't even a council member. :)
22:16 < quantumsummers|c> :)
22:16 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, why did you run for both if you felt you couldnt do both?
22:16 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: that's updated now?
22:16 < musikc|laptop> why did you wait until after you were not elected for council to make this decision?
22:16 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, No - the wording stands
22:16 <@tsunam> k
22:17 < quantumsummers|c> are the trustees in agreement?
22:17 <@tsunam> I think so
22:17 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, yes
22:17 <@fmccor> I vote yes.
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, care to second the motion so we can vote
22:17 <@tsunam> oh lucky me
22:17 < musikc|laptop> though fmccor has not answered by question why it was ok for him to be a trustee and to attempt to be council
22:17 <@tsunam> seconded 
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Vote
22:17 <@tsunam> aye
22:17 <@fmccor> Yes.
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> yes
22:18 <@tsunam> musikc|laptop: that's something you'd have to ask ferris
22:18 < musikc|laptop> i did, he's ignoring the question though ive asked it twice now
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> The motion that  bylaws as proposed in http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/docs/FoundationBylawsProposed_7.xml  has been passed
22:18 < quantumsummers|c> congrats
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> We have bylaws!
22:19 < musikc|laptop> so what is good for the goose (fmccor) is not good for the gander (the rest of gentoo)
22:19 < quantumsummers|c> bubbley  for everyone
22:19 <@fmccor> musikc|laptop, Someone nominated me and I accepted.  Afterwards, I was told that was a mistake.
22:19 < musikc|laptop> but you ran
22:19 < musikc|laptop> you never withdrew?
22:19 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I was nominated and declined
22:19 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, yes, but fmccor did not
22:19 < musikc|laptop> he ran
22:19 <@tsunam> aye
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, true.
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> One more item before AOB
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> Treasurers Report for FY ending 30 June 2008  tsunam 
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, last time we heard that there was a problem
22:20 <@tsunam> aye
22:21 <@tsunam> I misread some numbers and screwed up the reports :(
22:21 <@NeddySeagoon> fixed now ?
22:21 <@tsunam> I've more been dealing with paypal for the bank accounts that took a number of tries then doing the updated documentation which I need to get done 
22:21 <@tsunam> yes its fixed now, I need to review them and make sure they are all correct
22:22 <@tsunam> can say that we've had a number of large donations this year from various events/projects our developers have been involved with
22:22 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, is this our internal accounts or the stuff we have to file with the IRS ?
22:22 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: internaly/501* status info
22:22 <@tsunam> as we need to publish quarterly reports
22:22 <@NeddySeagoon> yep
22:22 <@tsunam> to maintain the NFP status for any group
22:22 <@tsunam> no matter the type of NFP
22:23 <@NeddySeagoon> Ah - ok
22:23 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, are you needing some help, or are you coping ?
22:23 <@tsunam> can cope with this
22:25 <@NeddySeagoon> And our yearly IRS filing ?
22:26 <@tsunam> that'll be beginning of next year, need to see what I need to file out
22:26 <@tsunam> what info is required
22:27 <@tsunam> my understanding is that its one form
22:27 <@NeddySeagoon> You are closer to it than me
22:27 <@tsunam> being in the US and all *nods* :-P
22:27 <@fmccor> Should we have an accountant for this sort of thing?
22:27 <@NeddySeagoon> When will we be able to see the quarterly reports ?
22:28 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, thats being worked
22:28 <@fmccor> Good, I thought so.
22:28 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^
22:29 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: can't give exactly when on the quarterly as it is over 2 years to update
22:29 <@tsunam> so I want to be very sure of my numbers
22:30 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, can we see some ?
22:30 <@tsunam> I'll try and get some up this week
22:30 < quantumsummers|c> tsunam: have you tried using gnucash for this?
22:30 < quantumsummers|c> it will do automated reports
22:30 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: its more a matter of getting the info out of paypal...
22:31 < quantumsummers|c> tsunam: I see, ouch
22:31 <@tsunam> I've used gnucash and kmymoney2 for this sort of stuff personally but its still decent effort and lots of people to thank
22:32 < quantumsummers|c> indeed
22:32 <@tsunam> and no easy way to automate it from the csv's etiher I tried that for a while
22:32 <@tsunam> but yes I'll get something going
22:34 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ok ... It will be on the agenda for the next meeting until the action is complete
22:34 <@tsunam> k
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 7 Any other business
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ?
22:35 <@tsunam> I got none
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, ?
22:35 <@fmccor> Two administrative ones.
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> on you go
22:36 <@fmccor> 1) For technical reasons, NeddySeagoon and I need to add Chairman and vice-Chairman to our titles ---
22:36 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, Why?
22:36 <@fmccor> Otherwise, if we ever have a separate president, that person presides.
22:36 <@fmccor> Thus ---
22:37 <@NeddySeagoon> You mean if we have an officer president ?
22:37 <@fmccor> Board meetings are run by the chairman, but but if none, then by the president.
22:37 <@fmccor> Yes.  It's to keep control of the board.
22:37 <@NeddySeagoon> I understand
22:38 <@fmccor> Certainly not an immediate issue, but one not to lose sight of.
22:39 <@NeddySeagoon> I would be good to split off the officer roles the trustees have been doing, get more business admin on board
22:39 <@fmccor> That was what my point was about.
22:40 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets hold it over to the next meeting.
22:40 <@NeddySeagoon> what was your second point ?
22:41 <@fmccor> Timing on secretary and filling up to full strength.
22:41 <@fmccor> I don't know when the next GMN will be is why I ask.
22:42 <@NeddySeagoon> I want to make an announcement at the next meeting.  Its been unfortunate there was no Aug GMN
22:42 <@fmccor> Fair enough.
22:42 <@NeddySeagoon> but we can't wait for the GMN
22:42 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, Is that it ?
22:42 <@fmccor> I think so, yes.
22:43 <@NeddySeagoon> Last item ...    8. Open floor
22:43 <@fmccor> rane always has something. :)
22:45 <@fmccor> Oh, we need to update the actual bylaws page.
22:46 <@fmccor> And remove "draft" from the home page. :)
22:46 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, is that an offer ?
22:46 <@fmccor> I can do it, I think.
22:46 <@NeddySeagoon> I need to learn to use CVS
22:46 <@fmccor> The proposal does not have a date in it; I can put today's date in or you can.
22:47 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, It should be todays date as its today the bylaws were adopted
22:47 <@NeddySeagoon> You can fix it
22:48 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more for Open Floor
22:48 <@fmccor> Right.  That's just the bit in the sidebar.
22:48 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor yes
22:48 < quantumsummers|c> are the trustees planning on further recruitment of officers beyond secretary?
22:49 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, Its not been formally decided but my view is yes.
22:49 <@fmccor> I hope so.
22:50 <@NeddySeagoon> We needed the trustees to do both roles while there were no bylaws but now we have ground rules, we can look at getting officers from outside the developer pool
22:50 < quantumsummers|c> very good
22:50 <@fmccor> membership pool. :)
22:51 < quantumsummers|c> thank you
22:51 -!- Arfrever [n=Arfrever@gentoo/user/arfrever] has joined #gentoo-trustees
22:51 < quantumsummers|c> I have a meeting with CPAs starting tuesday
22:51 < quantumsummers|c> *meetings*
22:52 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, good luck
22:52 < quantumsummers|c> thank you
22:52 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more for Open Floor ?
22:53  * fmccor is working on bylaws now --- wait around for 5 minutes or so, and I can say updated (then wait 15 minutes more to see if it worked)
22:53 < quantumsummers|c> when is the next meeting?
22:54  * quantumsummers|c grabs his calendar...
22:54 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, tsunam  Do you prefer 14 or the 15 September for our next meeting ?  (Sun or Mon ?)
22:56 <@fmccor> Or, maybe not.  The update complains about lots of xml problems
22:56 <@fmccor> Prefer the 15th
22:57 <@tsunam> that's my birthday =/
22:57 < quantumsummers|c> yo tsunam, mine's the 11th, happy b-day in advance
22:57 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: same to you
22:57 < quantumsummers|c> :)
22:57 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, 14th then ?
22:59 <@fmccor> Sure.
23:00 <@NeddySeagoon> DONM 14 Sep at 19:00 UTC
23:00 <@NeddySeagoon> Its a Sunday
23:01 <@tsunam> k
23:02 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, I'm going to need some help, because This shows many xml errors when I try to commit.
23:02 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I did it in xmlcopy editor
23:02 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, after the meeting
23:03 <@NeddySeagoon> If thats the end of Open Floor, the meeting is closed
23:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Meeting Closed
23:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Thank you everyone



1.1                  xml/htdocs/foundation/en/minutes/2008/august2008.txt

file : http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/foundation/en/minutes/2008/august2008.txt?rev=1.1&view=markup
plain: http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/foundation/en/minutes/2008/august2008.txt?rev=1.1&content-type=text/plain

Index: august2008.txt
===================================================================
21:00  * NeddySeagoon calls the meeting to order - roll call, tsunam and fmccor.  wltjr said he would not attend 
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, you had to vote in a trustee election as well
21:00  * fmccor here
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, wakey wakey
21:00 < musikc|laptop> i honestly dont recall if i did or not
21:01 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: I'm around =)
21:01 <@NeddySeagoon> heh.  OK we are quorate ... lets go. Agenda is in /topic 
21:01 <@fmccor> rane or Jorge would know --- they were the election officials.
21:01 <@NeddySeagoon> I think we can skip  Introductions
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> So, Actions From the Last Meeting...
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> Gentoo Foundation Banking - tsunam
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> care to say a few words ?
21:02 <@tsunam> paypal finally removed the old bank accounts. Need to check with them and see if there's anything the need now to unlock the account fully
21:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Does our paypay work ?
21:03 <@tsunam> we can accept donations
21:03 <@tsunam> can't send out
21:03 <@NeddySeagoon> paypal*
21:03 <@tsunam> currently
21:03 <@tsunam> they've been less then helpful in working with me on this :(
21:03 <@NeddySeagoon> do we owe anyone anything ?
21:04 <@tsunam> just trustee's some money
21:04 <@tsunam> wltjr 10-20 bucks he's not asked for yet, and me for the lawyers fee's still
21:04 <@NeddySeagoon> Needs fixed then, we don't want to mix our own and Foundation funds
21:05 <@NeddySeagoon> What about a bank account ?
21:05 <@tsunam> Last I heard was that the bank we wanted to go to was an online bank but required someone in new mexico to sign
21:05 <@tsunam> that was for compass was my understanding
21:06 <@fmccor> I didn't know they needed anyone to go there.  Hm.
21:06 <@tsunam> I'll have to reread the thread, but I could of sworn someone said that it was a requirement
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> Please tsunam.  Do you have the cheque for our funds from Grant ? 
21:07 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: still with grant
21:07 <@tsunam> he doesn't want to pass it on until the bank account is setup
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Have you asked for it ?
21:07 <@tsunam> sort of a chicken and the egg thing...
21:08 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: aye
21:08 <@NeddySeagoon> Don't we need it for opening the account ? 
21:08 <@tsunam> I've asked for it and that was the response I got
21:08 <@fmccor> Yeah.  Bank probably wants funds to set up an account. :(
21:08 <@tsunam> *nods*
21:08 <@tsunam> again assumes that check is still good
21:08 <@NeddySeagoon> So, fix paypay and use some of those funds
21:09 <@tsunam> assuming they don't want a working bank account *laughs*
21:09 <@NeddySeagoon> heh.
21:09 <@fmccor> Grant could cash it and write another.
21:09 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, are you going to have time to get onto this ?
21:11 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: honestly, unknown. I can look into compass again see if I was mistaken about needing to be in nm for it
21:11 <@NeddySeagoon> You have an incentive, we owe you money.
21:11 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, if we don't need to go to NM, can you open an account too ?
21:11 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: should be able to if no need to go to nm
21:12 <@tsunam> as its just filling out paperwork
21:12 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Care to estimate a date for checking the thread and applying for an account if no travel is needed ?
21:13 <@fmccor> They have an on-line site.  Might not need to check the thread.
21:13 <@tsunam> two weeks out
21:13 <@NeddySeagoon> Thats our next meeting - deal!
21:13 <@fmccor> That's fine with me.
21:14 <@NeddySeagoon> Next - Trustees and Foundation Article For the GMN - NeddySeagoon
21:14 <@NeddySeagoon> I've done a bit, fmccor has done a bit, tsunam ? 
21:14 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: working on it
21:15 <@NeddySeagoon> Should we leave this until we are up to strenght.  A sort of meet the new Trustees too, or should we run it with 3 and a vacancy list ?
21:16 <@fmccor> We could do it in pieces, or would you rather make it one dedicated GMN issue?
21:16 <@tsunam> I'd rather have all the slots filled
21:16 <@fmccor> Otherwise, I'd leave it, I think.
21:16 <@tsunam> before that
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets fill all the slots first then
21:17 <@fmccor> Yes.
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Next ... Trustees and Councillors - NeddySeagoon to Add Clause to draft bylaws
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> I've done that, its ugly but its there 
21:18 <@fmccor> Where?  I must have just read over it.
21:18 <@NeddySeagoon> No individual shall serve as a Gentoo Foundation Trustee and Gentoo Council Member concurrently
21:19 <@NeddySeagoon> under Article V Trustees
21:19 -!- fragalot [n=services@gentoo/user/FamousToaster] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
21:19 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, ^^
21:19 <@fmccor> I must be looking at an out-of-date version.
21:20 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, see the link in /topic
21:21 <@NeddySeagoon> Next ... International Licencing For Gentoo Merchandise
21:21 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, you were going to check with our lawyers
21:22 <@fmccor> I'm blind I guess.
21:22 <@fmccor> OK.
21:23 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, ^^
21:23 <@fmccor> First, our trademarks lawyer is pro bono and always has been and always will be.  When we get our funds in shape, we should spend a little money ($200)
21:24 <@fmccor> to get the address right on them.
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> Agreed 
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^
21:24 <@fmccor> Second, as I said, this lawyer knows as much about internal licensing agreements I do.
21:24 <@tsunam> hmm
21:24 <@tsunam> the 200 dollars or?
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> internal/international ?
21:24 <@tsunam> ah okie
21:25 <@fmccor> international. :)
21:25 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, yes - to fix our trademarks
21:25 <@tsunam> we've started it already for the international 
21:25 <@tsunam> so might as well finish it properly
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, for the avoidance of doubt, do you agreed to spending $200 to fix our trademarks ?
21:26 <@fmccor> She was going to check around with the firm to see if they could do it pro bono and let me know if they could.  I haven't heard anything.
21:26 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: yep
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, Is it polite to ask whats happening ?
21:27 <@fmccor> Renat had a couple other leads, so I'll get back with him and chase them down (he knows some people who actually do that sort of thing)
21:27 <@NeddySeagoon> Ah ok.  
21:27 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, contact with Renat for the next meeting ?
21:28 <@fmccor> I haven't had a chance to, but it's on my list.  He should be back at Harvard, so it's just a matter of how quickly he responds.
21:28 <@fmccor> I'll start on that after the holiday on Monday.
21:28 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, thats out of our control ... but you can do your bit before the next meeting ?
21:28 <@fmccor> Yes.
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> Next ... Open Bugs Assigned to Trustees
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> 177966 Clarify Foundation page on external entities (on hold for bylaws)
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> Nothing to add
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> 217511 The Gentoo Store is Out of Date - musikc
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, your turn to say a few words please
21:30 <@NeddySeagoon> !bug 217511
21:30 < Willikins> NeddySeagoon: https://bugs.gentoo.org/217511 "The Gentoo Store is Out of Date"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; NEW; neddyseagoon@g.o:trustees@g.o
21:30 < musikc|laptop> dberkholz is pr lead and has not had time to address the request about PR assisting
21:30 < musikc|laptop> if you check devaway his wife is having a baby so i do not wish to push him at this time
21:31 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I understand he is going to be busy
21:31 < musikc|laptop> he should be back around next week
21:32 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, He will be a wreck - the sleepless nights just starting
21:32 < quantumsummers|c> any interest in new t-shirt designs?
21:32 < musikc|laptop> you're so encouraging :-P
21:32 <@NeddySeagoon> Can we ask anyone else in PR ?
21:33 < quantumsummers|c> perhaps a design contest
21:33 < musikc|laptop> pr is ... a small group at present
21:33 < musikc|laptop> when is the next trustee meeting?
21:33 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, Sure - lots of things. We need to get CDs into the store.  We pulled 2006.0 a few months ago
21:34 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop 14 or 15 of September, depending if we go to Mondays as others wanted
21:35 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, The problem is running the store and keeping it current
21:35 < musikc|laptop> ok, i can either get information from dberkholz or draft something up on my own as i do not think he'd take issue with that.
21:35 < musikc|laptop> the day of the week will be an issue for me depending on the time of day
21:36 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop 19:00 UTC.  we are spread over 8 time zones
21:37 < musikc|laptop> for now that is noon my time and that i can work
21:37 <@NeddySeagoon> ok.  For the next meeting then.
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 4.   Move #gentoo-trustees away from freenode  ?
21:38 < musikc|laptop> ill poke you or tsunam for more details offline, can come up something within 2 weeks
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, ok
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> Don't delegate to tsunam :)
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 4.   Move #gentoo-trustees away from freenode  ?
21:38 < musikc|laptop> nah, not delegate, ask questions
21:39 <@fmccor> I'd rather not move unless you have a reason to.
21:39 <@NeddySeagoon> This came in after a Gentoo developer was klined
21:39 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: I think moving parts of #gentoo away from freenode without everyone is seperating the organization not strengthing it =/
21:39 <@fmccor> tsunam, agreed
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> I don't think we should move either, unless the rest of Gentoo decides to. That seems to have dies down now
21:40 <@fmccor> Doesn't matter much to me where we are, but we should all be the same place.
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, agreed
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> Anyone want to add anything ?
21:41 < quantumsummers|c> not I
21:41 < musikc|laptop> i had a question about the conflict of interest bit. why is it a conflict to care about legal/accounting AND technical?
21:41 <@tsunam> I would like to add that I continue to be dismayed by what occured and wish it be known that I'd like to see gentoo move away from freenode
21:41 <@fmccor> musikc|laptop, Where?
21:41 < musikc|laptop> oh hell, ya i agree with tsunam. sorry thought it was general question time.
21:42 <@fmccor> No, we're just getting to the fun part. :)
21:42 <@NeddySeagoon> OK now the bit you have all been waiting for 5. Adoption of draft Foundation Bylaws
21:42 <@fmccor> Is version 7 the correct one?
21:42  * tsunam points to musikc|laptop's question
21:43 <@NeddySeagoon> The latest draft of the bylaws are at http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/docs/FoundationBylawsProposed_7.xml
21:43 <@tsunam> can we address that first before working on the bylaws quickly
21:43  * musikc|laptop figures its viewed as not a relevant question
21:43 <@fmccor> Where did you mean conflict of interest?
21:43 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I can't think of an issue just now unless its a council application for funds and the trustees voting on it
21:44 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon amended article V to say you cant be on both, i asked tsunam why and he said likely a conflict of interest. im wondering why.
21:44 < musikc|laptop> iirc wolf is the only person who was on both and i dont recall anyone having an issue with that so why now? what has changed?
21:45 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, it says you can't be on both.  Consider what whould happen if the trustees were a subset of council
21:46 <@NeddySeagoon> council asks for funding or something,, council votes for it
21:46 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, again, someone was on both in the past and it was never an issue. what has changed that made it an issue?
21:47 <@NeddySeagoon> maybe a circumstance did not arise in the past for it to become an issue
21:47 < musikc|laptop> wouldnt the person who thinks its a good idea still think its a good idea whether they proposed it or someone else did?
21:47 <@fmccor> It's probably not.  This just makes sure.
21:47 <@NeddySeagoon>  Consider what whould happen if the trustees were a subset of council.   council asks for funding or something,, council votes for it
21:47 < quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon's point  regarding the board v. council COI is valid, the trustees of a foundation are usually  extra-organizational, though a council person can sit as an officer 
21:47 < musikc|laptop> i dont see the sense and am seeking that fmccor
21:48 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, but they arent a subset?
21:48 < musikc|laptop> it sounds like we're saying we dont trust people
21:48 <@fmccor> No, we're a completely separate entity.
21:48 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Not today they are not but if people were allowed to serve on both, it could happen
21:48 < quantumsummers|c> this separation is standard in npos
21:49 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, as the devs and/or foundation votes ppl in wouldnt the community be voting for whom they wanted?
21:49 < musikc|laptop> so shouldnt we let the community make that decision?
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> The council and foundation were set up as seperate entities.  How would you keep them seperate ?
21:49 < musikc|laptop> i just dont see the point if other than to say 'we cant trust people to make good decisions in the best interest of gentoo'
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Its a segregation of duties issue I think
21:49 < quantumsummers|c> this is generally considered a legal issue
21:49 <@fmccor> musikc|laptop, when we are here doing what we are doing right now, we are not part of gentoo at all.
21:50 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, and thats why i said foundation votes
21:50 < musikc|laptop> i like the right to vote for who i think is best for the role
21:50 < musikc|laptop> and instead am being told that one person is not capable of doing two things
21:50 < musikc|laptop> which i do not believe, otherwise i wouldnt want that person doing either thing if they were not capable
21:51 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, The council is 7 people and the Trustees 5.  The original intent of seperation would be lost.
21:51 < musikc|laptop> it seems like a restriction of our options for reasons of 'what if' and the what if has never happened, even when there was over lap so i do not see the need to make the change at present
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> I don't see it as a change.  The Foundation has never had bylaws yet, so they can't be changed
21:52 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, no the original intent was to have council focus on technical direction and trustees on legal/accounting. that doesnt change just b/c one person could be capable of doing both or else we as the community have voted very poorly if one person was only capable of one position yet we voted them in for both
21:52 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, it is a change when you are restricting who i can vote for a role
21:53 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, If someone wants to swap thats fine.
21:53 < musikc|laptop> i think there are qualified people on trustees and council presently that could do very well both teams, but you are saying that a person is only capable of doing one.
21:54 < musikc|laptop> it is an artificial limitation and a removal of my rights to vote who i think is best suited for any role
21:54 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Nope. Its not about capabilities
21:54 < quantumsummers|c> it is reasonable, however, to simply disallow the Council president from being a trustee for the term
21:54 <@NeddySeagoon> Its segregation of duties
21:54 < musikc|laptop> how is it about capabilities?
21:55 < musikc|laptop> again, you are telling me that i cannot find one person capable of being BOTH a trustee and a council person and i disagree, it is my right to vote for whom i feel is the best fit
21:56 < musikc|laptop> the segregation of duties is done by having two teams, however it is a limitation to say that a person must be segregated physically, that a person cannot have business sense and technical sense, or that cannot be trusted to use both wisely
21:56 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, you may nominate who you like. They must choose which body they serve on 
21:56 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, i feel you miss my point entirely. yes i may vote for who i like, but now for ONE team only
21:57 <@fmccor> Consider, suppose the council asks the foundation for funding, or something.  The conflict arises if there is a council member on the board.
21:57 < musikc|laptop> given how few people even run for trustees you are removing possible and capable people from the selection if they wish to also serve in the technical direction.
21:57 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Its not a new point.  It was dicussed at the last meeing and the action was placed on me to update the bylaws draft, which I have done.
21:58 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, the notion of conflict of interest here is silly imo. a person already thinks a certain way, so you're saying that they would think differently if they were on both teams or that YOU cannot trust someone to make a rational decision b/c he was involved in the desire for something as well as the means to say yes i agree with my desire?
21:58 < musikc|laptop> its foolhearty at best
21:58 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, so again my original response to tsunam is accurate, that my question is not relevant, that being because you have already decided?
21:59 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I propose that the bylaws are adoped as written and reviewed prior to the Feb 2009 Trustee Election
21:59 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, I'll so move if you like.
21:59 < quantumsummers|c> the simple compromise here is to allow councilors to have seats on the board of trustees, while disallowing the council pres from sitting on the board.  there is precedent for this, as well as NeddySeagoon's complete separation.  However, it is generally considered bad practice to allow an executive director ( i.e. council pres.) to be on the board.
21:59 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, The trustees decided at the last meeting, not me personally
22:00 <+jmbsvicetto> I see I forgot your meeting again :|
22:00 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, i didnt say you personally, you in the sense of trustees.
22:00 < musikc|laptop> so if i understand correctly the trustees do not wish to hear my concern with this any longer?
22:00 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, thank you for the clarification
22:00 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, Right now it's better to go with what we have.
22:01 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, We can always amend if a case can be made.
22:01 < quantumsummers|c> I agree, merely pointing out options
22:01 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, are my questions and comments not a case made or just not deemed worthy?
22:02 < musikc|laptop> a perfect case is... it worked in the past. Gentoo is the proof of concept.
22:02 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I hear your concern.  There will be no elections until Feb 2009, so we have a chance to change the bylaws if needed.  In practice, we are after a moving target, so I see bylaws updates happening at least twice a year to start with
22:02 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, so i must wait until new trustee elections to hope i can vote for someone who isnt already on council, thus sacrificing the technical direction of gentoo for the legal one?
22:03 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Past performace is no indicator of future performace
22:03 < quantumsummers|c> could start a bug regarding this specific issue, then update the bylaws before the election
22:03 < musikc|laptop> and random 'what ifs' are no indicator of future performance
22:04 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, i thought it made sense to discuss it before it went into action instead of trying to revoke something after the fact
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Nope, the bylaws can be changed quite quickly, once we have some
22:04 < musikc|laptop> http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/bylaws.xml
22:04 < musikc|laptop> are those not bylaws?
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, they were never adopted - so No, they are no
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> not*
22:05 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, thank you for clarifying
22:05 <@NeddySeagoon> np
22:06 < musikc|laptop> so i seem to understand that you would rather fix something after the fact then correct it before it bec omes the fact?
22:06 < quantumsummers|c> musikc|laptop: I agree there needs to be discourse on this subject, but I understand the immediate necessity of adopting bylaws for legal reasons
22:06 < musikc|laptop> so remove that one part and implement the rest. it is one sentence that appears thrown in anyways.
22:07 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, The bylaws as adopted will never be perfect. Its a moving target which it why its taken several years to get here.  Yes. I prefer something imperfect rather than nothing
22:07 < musikc|laptop> there is no discussion prior or after the sentence that explain it, just a matter of fact statement that i ask be removed so we can visit the topic
22:08 < musikc|laptop> what is the harm about commenting out one sentence?
22:08 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Lets ask fmccor and tsunam 
22:08 <@fmccor> Discussion was last meeting, don't recall how much.
22:08 < quantumsummers|c> this may be a good time for a vote of the trustees with a provision for future re-consideration of the issue (a bug)
22:08 < musikc|laptop> i disagree and trustees seem to be saying 'we can change it later' but im asking that we just comment out one sentence and discuss whether it should be added later
22:08 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, please leave them as proposed.
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ??
22:09 <@tsunam> sec
22:09 <@tsunam> someone was at the door
22:09 <@tsunam> reading scroll back
22:10 <@tsunam> so suggestion is to remove the can't be trustee and council?
22:10 <@NeddySeagoon> yes
22:10 < musikc|laptop> i ask that it be commented out and the remaining implemented
22:10 < musikc|laptop> id like to discuss the matter further as though NeddySeagoon and fmccor tried to explain i cannot understand the why
22:10 <@tsunam> hmm
22:11 <@tsunam> I'd rather get something implemented...if it takes removing that to get it then yes
22:11 <@fmccor> It doesn't take that.
22:12 <@fmccor> The three of us are going to vote on the proposal.
22:12 < musikc|laptop> as i understand it, fmccor and NeddySeagoon do not trust people to make the right decision for two teams, only being capable to do what is right for one team.
22:12 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Its only we three that vote on it.  No changes are required. I would like us all to be in favour though
22:12 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, Its not a trust issue at all
22:13 < quantumsummers|c> its a legal issue
22:13 <@tsunam> I'd prefer it to stay, but then it also potentially limits who can be a trustee and we all know its already hard to find people who are willing to bet trustee's
22:13 < musikc|laptop> i dont see how its a legal issue
22:13 < musikc|laptop> i work for a large public company and people on our executive board are also on our board of directors
22:13 <@fmccor> tsunam, It limits it by 7 out of the entire Foundation. :)
22:14 <@NeddySeagoon> Would someone propose a motion on the proposed bylaws please
22:14 < quantumsummers|c> right, but is the CEO on the board of trustees, musikc|laptop?
22:14 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, you yoursle wanted to be on both
22:14 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, 6.  There is a councilor who is not a Foundation member
22:14 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, who is our CEO in Gentoo?
22:14 <@fmccor> And it was a mistake.
22:14 < quantumsummers|c> that would be the council pres
22:15 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, there is no council president iirc
22:15 < quantumsummers|c> equiv to executive director, thought that was vaiper
22:15 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, Gentoo has a huge separtation between the distro and the foundation
22:15 < musikc|laptop> nope, they are all listed as member
22:15 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, I move we accept the bylaws as proposed in http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/docs/FoundationBylawsProposed_7.xml
22:15 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, thank you 
22:15 < quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon: this I know, and agree with a strong separation
22:16 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^
22:16 < Philantrop> quantumsummers|c: vapier isn't even a council member. :)
22:16 < quantumsummers|c> :)
22:16 < musikc|laptop> fmccor, why did you run for both if you felt you couldnt do both?
22:16 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: that's updated now?
22:16 < musikc|laptop> why did you wait until after you were not elected for council to make this decision?
22:16 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, No - the wording stands
22:16 <@tsunam> k
22:17 < quantumsummers|c> are the trustees in agreement?
22:17 <@tsunam> I think so
22:17 < musikc|laptop> quantumsummers|c, yes
22:17 <@fmccor> I vote yes.
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, care to second the motion so we can vote
22:17 <@tsunam> oh lucky me
22:17 < musikc|laptop> though fmccor has not answered by question why it was ok for him to be a trustee and to attempt to be council
22:17 <@tsunam> seconded 
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Vote
22:17 <@tsunam> aye
22:17 <@fmccor> Yes.
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> yes
22:18 <@tsunam> musikc|laptop: that's something you'd have to ask ferris
22:18 < musikc|laptop> i did, he's ignoring the question though ive asked it twice now
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> The motion that  bylaws as proposed in http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/docs/FoundationBylawsProposed_7.xml  has been passed
22:18 < quantumsummers|c> congrats
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> We have bylaws!
22:19 < musikc|laptop> so what is good for the goose (fmccor) is not good for the gander (the rest of gentoo)
22:19 < quantumsummers|c> bubbley  for everyone
22:19 <@fmccor> musikc|laptop, Someone nominated me and I accepted.  Afterwards, I was told that was a mistake.
22:19 < musikc|laptop> but you ran
22:19 < musikc|laptop> you never withdrew?
22:19 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, I was nominated and declined
22:19 < musikc|laptop> NeddySeagoon, yes, but fmccor did not
22:19 < musikc|laptop> he ran
22:19 <@tsunam> aye
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc|laptop, true.
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> One more item before AOB
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> Treasurers Report for FY ending 30 June 2008  tsunam 
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, last time we heard that there was a problem
22:20 <@tsunam> aye
22:21 <@tsunam> I misread some numbers and screwed up the reports :(
22:21 <@NeddySeagoon> fixed now ?
22:21 <@tsunam> I've more been dealing with paypal for the bank accounts that took a number of tries then doing the updated documentation which I need to get done 
22:21 <@tsunam> yes its fixed now, I need to review them and make sure they are all correct
22:22 <@tsunam> can say that we've had a number of large donations this year from various events/projects our developers have been involved with
22:22 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, is this our internal accounts or the stuff we have to file with the IRS ?
22:22 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: internaly/501* status info
22:22 <@tsunam> as we need to publish quarterly reports
22:22 <@NeddySeagoon> yep
22:22 <@tsunam> to maintain the NFP status for any group
22:22 <@tsunam> no matter the type of NFP
22:23 <@NeddySeagoon> Ah - ok
22:23 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, are you needing some help, or are you coping ?
22:23 <@tsunam> can cope with this
22:25 <@NeddySeagoon> And our yearly IRS filing ?
22:26 <@tsunam> that'll be beginning of next year, need to see what I need to file out
22:26 <@tsunam> what info is required
22:27 <@tsunam> my understanding is that its one form
22:27 <@NeddySeagoon> You are closer to it than me
22:27 <@tsunam> being in the US and all *nods* :-P
22:27 <@fmccor> Should we have an accountant for this sort of thing?
22:27 <@NeddySeagoon> When will we be able to see the quarterly reports ?
22:28 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, thats being worked
22:28 <@fmccor> Good, I thought so.
22:28 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^
22:29 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: can't give exactly when on the quarterly as it is over 2 years to update
22:29 <@tsunam> so I want to be very sure of my numbers
22:30 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, can we see some ?
22:30 <@tsunam> I'll try and get some up this week
22:30 < quantumsummers|c> tsunam: have you tried using gnucash for this?
22:30 < quantumsummers|c> it will do automated reports
22:30 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: its more a matter of getting the info out of paypal...
22:31 < quantumsummers|c> tsunam: I see, ouch
22:31 <@tsunam> I've used gnucash and kmymoney2 for this sort of stuff personally but its still decent effort and lots of people to thank
22:32 < quantumsummers|c> indeed
22:32 <@tsunam> and no easy way to automate it from the csv's etiher I tried that for a while
22:32 <@tsunam> but yes I'll get something going
22:34 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ok ... It will be on the agenda for the next meeting until the action is complete
22:34 <@tsunam> k
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 7 Any other business
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ?
22:35 <@tsunam> I got none
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, ?
22:35 <@fmccor> Two administrative ones.
22:35 <@NeddySeagoon> on you go
22:36 <@fmccor> 1) For technical reasons, NeddySeagoon and I need to add Chairman and vice-Chairman to our titles ---
22:36 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, Why?
22:36 <@fmccor> Otherwise, if we ever have a separate president, that person presides.
22:36 <@fmccor> Thus ---
22:37 <@NeddySeagoon> You mean if we have an officer president ?
22:37 <@fmccor> Board meetings are run by the chairman, but but if none, then by the president.
22:37 <@fmccor> Yes.  It's to keep control of the board.
22:37 <@NeddySeagoon> I understand
22:38 <@fmccor> Certainly not an immediate issue, but one not to lose sight of.
22:39 <@NeddySeagoon> I would be good to split off the officer roles the trustees have been doing, get more business admin on board
22:39 <@fmccor> That was what my point was about.
22:40 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets hold it over to the next meeting.
22:40 <@NeddySeagoon> what was your second point ?
22:41 <@fmccor> Timing on secretary and filling up to full strength.
22:41 <@fmccor> I don't know when the next GMN will be is why I ask.
22:42 <@NeddySeagoon> I want to make an announcement at the next meeting.  Its been unfortunate there was no Aug GMN
22:42 <@fmccor> Fair enough.
22:42 <@NeddySeagoon> but we can't wait for the GMN
22:42 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, Is that it ?
22:42 <@fmccor> I think so, yes.
22:43 <@NeddySeagoon> Last item ...    8. Open floor
22:43 <@fmccor> rane always has something. :)
22:45 <@fmccor> Oh, we need to update the actual bylaws page.
22:46 <@fmccor> And remove "draft" from the home page. :)
22:46 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, is that an offer ?
22:46 <@fmccor> I can do it, I think.
22:46 <@NeddySeagoon> I need to learn to use CVS
22:46 <@fmccor> The proposal does not have a date in it; I can put today's date in or you can.
22:47 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, It should be todays date as its today the bylaws were adopted
22:47 <@NeddySeagoon> You can fix it
22:48 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more for Open Floor
22:48 <@fmccor> Right.  That's just the bit in the sidebar.
22:48 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor yes
22:48 < quantumsummers|c> are the trustees planning on further recruitment of officers beyond secretary?
22:49 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, Its not been formally decided but my view is yes.
22:49 <@fmccor> I hope so.
22:50 <@NeddySeagoon> We needed the trustees to do both roles while there were no bylaws but now we have ground rules, we can look at getting officers from outside the developer pool
22:50 < quantumsummers|c> very good
22:50 <@fmccor> membership pool. :)
22:51 < quantumsummers|c> thank you
22:51 -!- Arfrever [n=Arfrever@gentoo/user/arfrever] has joined #gentoo-trustees
22:51 < quantumsummers|c> I have a meeting with CPAs starting tuesday
22:51 < quantumsummers|c> *meetings*
22:52 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, good luck
22:52 < quantumsummers|c> thank you
22:52 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more for Open Floor ?
22:53  * fmccor is working on bylaws now --- wait around for 5 minutes or so, and I can say updated (then wait 15 minutes more to see if it worked)
22:53 < quantumsummers|c> when is the next meeting?
22:54  * quantumsummers|c grabs his calendar...
22:54 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, tsunam  Do you prefer 14 or the 15 September for our next meeting ?  (Sun or Mon ?)
22:56 <@fmccor> Or, maybe not.  The update complains about lots of xml problems
22:56 <@fmccor> Prefer the 15th
22:57 <@tsunam> that's my birthday =/
22:57 < quantumsummers|c> yo tsunam, mine's the 11th, happy b-day in advance
22:57 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: same to you
22:57 < quantumsummers|c> :)
22:57 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, 14th then ?
22:59 <@fmccor> Sure.
23:00 <@NeddySeagoon> DONM 14 Sep at 19:00 UTC
23:00 <@NeddySeagoon> Its a Sunday
23:01 <@tsunam> k
23:02 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, I'm going to need some help, because This shows many xml errors when I try to commit.
23:02 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I did it in xmlcopy editor
23:02 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, after the meeting
23:03 <@NeddySeagoon> If thats the end of Open Floor, the meeting is closed
23:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Meeting Closed
23:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Thank you everyone



No                   


No                   


No                   


No                   


No                   


No                   


No                   


No