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Steven J. Long posted on Thu, 11 Jul 2013 13:59:32 +0100 as excerpted: |
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|
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> <Resend after subscribe> |
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> Duncan wrote: |
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>> For kde-4.11, it seems the gentoo/kde project has decided to |
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>> hard-enable the former semantic-desktop USE flag, forcing the option on |
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>> and forcing a number of formerly optional additional dependencies.[1] |
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>> |
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>> But, I spent quite some time here switching away from kdepim's kmail, |
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>> akregator, etc, so I could kill akonadi on my system, and with it |
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>> semantic-desktop, etc, and I'm in no mood to have it hard-enabled now. |
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>> If it comes to it, I'd rather dump the kde desktop and switch to |
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>> something else[2], than have semantic-desktop on my system once again. |
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> |
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> I *totally* concur. After finally getting rid of KMail, it took me 9 |
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> months to work out and feel comfortable with mutt[1], and then it was |
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> much less of a step to get rid of nubkit, as well as semantic-craptop. |
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> |
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> Finally, at 4.9 my KDE has come back to me, and feels as slick as 3.5 |
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> :-) |
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|
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It was kde 4.7 for me, but I definitely know the feeling. There's more |
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that could be said on that theme, but I guess for anyone interested in |
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this thread, it's preaching to the choir. Suffice it to say that none of |
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us greeted that gentoo/kde announcement with rejoicing, to say the least, |
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but... (vvv) |
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|
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> That's progress for ya.. ;p |
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|
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(^^^) ... =:^( |
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|
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>> Then I created a framework that works much like epatch_user, except |
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>> instead of automatically applying patches to upstream sources, it |
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>> automatically applies patches to gentoo ebuilds and instead of using |
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>> the /etc/portage/patches/ tree, it uses /etc/portage/patches.ebuild/. |
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> |
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> Hmm that's quite interesting. Not something I'd personally want in the |
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> tree, but definitely of interest to more advanced admins, as opposed to |
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> end-users. |
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|
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Of course, as I guess you'll recall (you've been around long enough I |
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think) that's what was originally said about epatch_user as well... |
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|
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> (Yeah, we're all admins. Still, I don't administer a large network, and |
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> I don't call myself a sys-admin. I just appreciate good infra.) |
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|
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I definitely call myself a sysadmin. It's my stated opinion that if |
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people were to take the job of administering their own systems as |
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seriously as a sysadmin does or should do (and I definitely do), then |
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we'd not have the problem with malware that we do, as there'd always be |
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insecure systems, but like a well immunized population, the immunity |
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level of the population as a whole would mean the number of infectible |
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hosts would be below that required for viable propagation, and the |
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infections simply wouldn't spread as there wouldn't be enough vulnerable |
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systems within reach for them to spread to. |
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|
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Administrating a computer system is a serious job, and the more people |
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that consider it so, the less danger everyone, both those that treat the |
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job seriously and those who don't, are in. |
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|
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So yes, I'm definitely a sysadmin, even if it's only for a couple |
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systems. And yes, I take that job seriously, even if I'm not paid for it |
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because they're my own systems, administered as a hobby. |
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|
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|
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Meanwhile, before "ebuild_patch_user" gets to the point that it's |
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acceptable in mainline (if it /ever/ gets to the point that it's |
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acceptable in mainline), just as epatch_user, time and many rounds of |
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revision (and an appropriate level of verbosity saying an ebuild was |
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modified in emerge --info <pkg>, for posting with bugs) will be needed. |
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|
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>> So now I have a set of ebuild patches that patch the kde 4.11 ebuilds |
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>> (starting with 4.10.80, aka 4.11-beta1) to force-disable semantic- |
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>> desktop, instead of force-enabling it. And I have a scripted framework |
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>> that auto-applies these patches to new ebuilds on emerge --sync and |
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>> layman -S, thus keeping no-semantic around as upstream gentoo/kde |
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>> updates their ebuilds. |
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> |
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> Have to say I think I'd prefer this as a semi-automatically generated |
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> overlay. ie apply the patches, and if they work, let the maintainer |
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> confirm after testing. |
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|
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If the target audience is to include the less experienced, as you're |
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hinting at, then ultimately I must agree. |
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|
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>> For now, therefore, I'm fine, up and running on 4.10.90 (aka |
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>> 4.11-beta2), using gentoo/kde ebuilds auto-patched to kill the now |
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>> forced-on semantic- desktop, forcing it off instead. |
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>> |
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>> But realistically, I honestly don't know if longer term, I'll be able |
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>> to continue maintenance of all of this by myself. |
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> |
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> Indeed. You shouldn't be doing this alone, over the longer-term: it'll |
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> just burn you out. |
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|
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So we agree. =:^) |
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|
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>> Besides which, if I'm finding kde-nosemantic useful enough to go to all |
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>> this trouble, there's a good chance that others will be interested in |
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>> it themselves, especially if they don't have to do all the work I'm now |
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>> doing myself, themselves. So with kde-sunset in mind as precedent, I'm |
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>> now proposing a kde-nosemantic overlay, like kde-sunset, |
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>> user-maintained, but for kde4 folks who want a continued no-semantic |
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>> choice, instead of kde3 users. |
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>> |
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>> Any interest? |
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> |
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> Hell yeah :-)[2] You picked an odd forum for it though: I only found out |
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> about this because Dominique posted to pro-audio list. |
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|
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I picked this list/forum for a couple (related) reasons, in addition to |
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convenience (I was already subscribed). |
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|
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1) It's the coordinating list for kde-sunset, and this seemed a |
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reasonably similar project, so using the same list seemed appropriate. |
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|
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2) This list is also where the gentoo/kde project posts meeting |
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announcements and sometimes summaries, etc. |
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|
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Together those make this list more or less the all-things-kde list (not |
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excluding the more general desktop bit, but particularly for those |
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interested in kde...), and it seemed to me to make this the logical place |
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to post, certainly for an initial feeler. |
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|
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>> To be further discussed: Assuming a go-ahead on the general idea, do |
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>> we want to maintain it as a normal overlay carrying at least the kde4 |
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>> ebuilds that require patching to kill semantic-desktop |
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> |
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> Yes, as above. I much prefer the traceability of an overlay with |
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> conventional ebuilds in it. If we're going to do this, let's do it |
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> right. |
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|
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OK, barring any strong feeling posted to the contrary... WORKSFORME. =:^) |
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|
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> Yes, the tools should be available in their own right. |
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> |
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> Tho that was an awfully long-winded way of saying "Ebuild-patch tools |
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> could well be of wider interest." ;) |
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|
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I blame all those "minimum 2 pages" (replacing 2 with a larger number as |
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I advanced) assignments in school, when two paragraphs totaling half a |
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page would have well sufficed. All those years of schooling forcing |
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rediculous verbosity... and I hit "real life" and everybody's saying |
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tl;dr! Talk about schools teaching the wrong thing! |
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|
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>> A hybrid alternative would be to adopt an idea much like the existing |
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>> kde overlay, where there's a documentation or tools directory that |
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>> carries them, in addition to the kde-base category and etc, carrying |
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>> the patched ebuilds themselves. |
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> |
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> That sounds ideal, but why not just have two overlays? One for |
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> ebuild-patch which others can use and collaborate around, and one |
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> conventional kde-lean for people who want the end-product. |
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|
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kde-lean definitely beats kde-nosemantic, my working title. |
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|
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As for ebuild-patch, an overlay just for it? What about setting up a git |
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repo somewhere (github's popular, but not open source...) and putting the |
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ebuild for it, presumably using git2.eclass for a live-9999 version, in |
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the sunrise overlay? Once it gets mature enough to tag, if we don't want |
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to bother with a tarball, a versioned ebuild can still use the git |
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infrastructure, and simply checkout a specific tag. |
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|
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> After all, ebuild-patch tools are strictly for maintainers, and people |
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> who want to experiment on their system. The output ebuilds have an |
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> orthogonal use. |
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|
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Agreed. |
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|
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> I'd ask that we collaborate on the forums[2] about this: things can move |
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> much quicker there, and you get general encouragement and lots of bug |
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> feedback, as well as others to help. |
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|
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I've actually seen lists/newsgroups move in very close to real-time -- as |
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close as I generally care to get (I don't do IRC as I like a bit more |
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time to compose my posts). |
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|
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But, web-forums do seem to be more popular, and I guess I could dust off |
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my old forum login or create a new one... |
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|
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> creaker patched kdelibs, as you'll see, already, and he's interested in |
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> working on the overlay ("Without overlay it may be boring to do the |
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> things I did before on every update.") So between the two of you, and as |
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> others get involved, I'm sure it can be done. As you said, KDE-4 is |
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> practically EOL, given that more developer focus is on 5. |
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> |
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> I can get the overlays, git and trac setup, same as we did for hardened |
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> a few years ago, if that helps. |
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|
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That would be useful. |
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|
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Person to person, let me also say I'm absolutely thrilled to have you |
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helping. I didn't know you were a kde-er so thought it a bit much to |
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hope for, but I definitely consider your bash skills well above mine |
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(you're the name that comes to mind when the words "bash coder" get |
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used), and have little doubt that you'll be able to beat my poor hacks |
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that work on my system but that I wouldn't consider secure or robust |
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enough for general purpose use into much better general-purpose shape, |
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far faster/better than I could. |
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|
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And I expect quite apart from improving the tools themselves, I'll learn |
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quite a lot from the process, and my next project will be rather higher |
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(dare I say professional?) quality early code as a result. I certainly |
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can't argue with that! =:^) |
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|
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Of course there's other than shell/bash, but that's the scripting I'm |
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most familiar with. I tried perl but that didn't go so well. I have on |
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my list to learn python some day, but it's been on my list for awhile, |
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and bash can do way more than a lot of people give it credit for, even if |
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it's not the most efficient choice for the job otherwise. |
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|
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> [2] How to opt out of a semantic-desktop? |
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> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-963504.html |
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|
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I guess you're more of a forums user than I. If we do the forums, new |
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topic in desktop environment, or unsupported software, or ...? Or |
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continue with the topic above? |
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|
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And do we combine the kde and tools subjects in a single topic or one for |
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each? |
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|
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What else? |
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|
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Back to the list vs forums thing: |
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|
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FWIW, I prefer lists as I actually prefer newsgroups, and read my lists |
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via gmane as newsgroups. However, I guess one goes where the audience |
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is, and as I said earlier, web-forums do seem to be more popular, so... |
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But OTOH, this list is already used for kde-sunset and by the gentoo/kde |
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project, so an argument could be made for that too, and people that want |
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to talk about kde-lean bad enough will I guess subscribe... How strong |
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are your forum prefs and do you have any further thoughts/reasons why |
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switching to the forums would be better? |
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|
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It's just that... I've been a regular on some lists and/or newsgroups for |
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a decade or more (I've been a regular on the pan lists since 2002, |
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according to gmane, and I've been on some newsgroup or another since I |
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discovered them back in 1997 or so, back on MS with the IE4 previews), |
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but despite the best of intentions, I've never been able to handle a |
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forum for more than a couple months before I burn out on it, so quite |
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apart from the personal preference thing, a real-life consideration is |
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that my own longevity as a project contributor before burnout may well be |
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conditional on what form the project communications take, list or forum, |
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with the latter very possibly leading to much faster burnout. |
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|
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Meanwhile, on another aspect of longevity, I expect I'll be making the |
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switch to kde5/frameworks with their more modular design (which I'm |
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SERIOUSLY hoping means keeping semantic-desktop optional, if not, I'll |
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almost certainly switch to something else rather quickly after I find |
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that out, but I'm optimistic given what I've read about it so far) |
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relatively quickly, as I tend to be somewhat ahead of the pack when it |
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comes to migrations, etc. |
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|
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(With kde4 I was a bit slower than usual, as it simply wasn't working for |
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me, but I did try it before 4.0, dropping it for a time when it became |
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obvious that wouldn't be working for me at release, and periodically |
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after that, until 4.2 or so, when I force-switched to kde-4.2.5 despite |
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its brokenness after finding out that 3.x was no longer supported |
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upstream despite previous promises, and that as a result, gentoo/kde was |
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going to be dropping kde3 as well, even tho it took them several months |
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longer to actually drop it.) |
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|
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And I'm hoping to switch to wayland about the same time as kde5/ |
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frameworks, with the X-wayland client providing legacy X support where |
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necessary, tho all that's rather iffy and vague at this point. |
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|
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But all that means my personal interest in kde4-lean may be rather short- |
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lived... perhaps to the end of year or early next, tho with kdelibs4 and |
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kde-workspace4 feature-frozen, kde4 itself is planned to continue getting |
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further updates until say mid-year 2014 (or later if they get behind on |
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kde5/frameworks), which means it'll probably remain available in gentoo |
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until end of 2014 or so, at least. |
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|
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However, with interest and help from others, it's quite possible my |
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initial patches and tool code can help jumpstart things, and the project |
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will be able to continue without me by then. |
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|
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What do you (and anyone else who cares to jump in) think? Is it |
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reasonable to expect the project to be sustainable without me once I |
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decide to move on to kde5/frameworks, or are my active contributions and |
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patching likely to continue to be necessary, such that it may not be |
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worth even starting the (public) project (other than perhaps simply |
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throwing it over the wall and letting people use it as-is while they can) |
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if I'm not willing to commit to saying with it longer than that? |
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|
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As I said, you're more experienced in the forums than I. There's |
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certainly some interest there. But is it likely enough to build |
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something that I can reasonably expect to be sustainable without me in a |
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reasonable time, or is it likely that I (and possibly you) will be doing |
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nearly everything myself/ourselves, and once I move on, the whole thing |
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will dry up and blow away? And if it does dry up and blow away when I |
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leave, will it have been worth the trouble for the time it will have been |
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available (hey, it gave people six months they'd have not had otherwise |
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and that's something!), or not? |
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|
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I guess it's likely that (given your help anyway) at least the ebuild- |
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patching framework will continue on as a viable tool, quite independent |
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of the kde-lean project where it originated. That's something. |
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|
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Of course the other possibility is that kde5/frameworks will continue an |
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optional semantic-desktop, but that contrary to gentoo norms and values, |
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the gentoo/kde project will fail to support that option there as it's now |
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doing with 4.11, in which case kde-lean in some form may continue to be |
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viable into kde5/frameworks... But that's a possibility that remains to |
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be seen, and if it /does/ happen, I'm sure I'll need even more help |
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longer term to keep the kde-lean option viable. |
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|
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Finally, it's worth confirming one thing brought up on the forum thread. |
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I don't see any realistic possibility of doing anything further with |
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kdepim in a no-semantic kde. That's an upstream hard-dependency and I |
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don't see anyw way around it, making kdepim totally non-viable for our |
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purposes. Agreed? Given that, I believe it best not to carry kdepim in |
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the kde-lean overlay at all, and to recommend that people use something |
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else. Claws-mail seems the most direct low-dep but still GUI replacement |
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for both kmail and (with the feed plugin) akregator, but of course people |
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can choose thunderbird or something else if they prefer. Meanwhile, we |
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can recommend that those that want to keep kmail or other kdepim |
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components use the semantic-desktop enabled mainline gentoo/kde, |
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instead. Thus they can choose kdepim and semantic-desktop with mainline |
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gentoo/kde, or kde-lean and alternatives to kdepim packages, their choice. |
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|
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And one more thing: Short term, is it worth it to post the 4.10.80+ |
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patches as I have them either here or to the forum thread linked above, |
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or is it better to wait until we have an overlay to put them in and/or |
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until 4.11.0 is available? Because I see creaker posted his modified |
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kdelibs ebuild, but I think that was still kde 4.10.4. My patches are |
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tested not to pull in the deps here at all (unlike his kdelibs-only |
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ebuild), but they're for 4.10.80+, where the semantic-desktop USE flag is |
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already gone, and thus won't apply cleanly to earlier versions that still |
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have it. Also, while complete for the packages I have installed, I don't |
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have a full kde installed (obviously not kdepim, but beyond that too), so |
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further patches will likely be needed for other packages. |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |