Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: Jeroen Roovers <jer@g.o>
To: gentoo-dev@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 03:24:46
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo by Sebastian Pipping
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:14:28 +0200
Sebastian Pipping <sping@g.o> wrote:

> On 06/16/10 07:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > > That's a conclusion first, then a premise? > > "Tone is not a strength of Gentoo" is my own obserservation. > Please be more verbose - I fail to understand the core of your > question.
I was responding two the two previous (quoted) paragraphs: 1> Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. 2> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the 2> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. and the question was whether "the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy"(2) equals "bad tone"(1), whereby the latter paragraph(the premise) serves to prove the former (the conclusion). In my humble opinion, a lack of respect or a lack of empathy is not the same as "bad tone". Whereby I take "bad tone" to mean is communicating in a bad, possibly malicious way, like condescending or scathing in nature. I guess bad communication could result from a lack of respect, but that presupposes a history between the parties that do not show each other respect. A lack of empathy is something that really does bite us, as is already explained by Roy, with his three cause of cumulative misunderstanding. There's a language barrier, English is *not* the easiest language to bring an unmistakable point across in, and on top of that there is a problem, between people from different nations, of different sexes and of different ages. I'd say there is yet a fourth cause, which is that the Internet (that thing appearing on your computer screen) offers far fewer moral handholds than your typical brick-and-mortar environment with real people in them.
> I have oberved this in #gentoo, in the forums and basically every > thread releated to Python 3 - that topic seams to be a heat bomb. > Are links to concrete threads really necessary? I'm afraid we'll be > arguing about that very case and justifications for this and that > sentence then. My concern are all threads together.
That's not much of an example.
> I agree with antarus that it shouldn't be the job of just DevRel to > demand friendly tone on communication mediums but the job of everyone > involved.
Well, on top of that, devrel already tried that once, and I think it didn't work.
> As I understand you say that bad bug reports make it hard for you to > stay friendly. Correct?
No, it is difficult to write a good response to any bug report. If you need to write a response at all, the report is probably so bad it needs to be closed (perhaps to be reopened later). A bad bug report takes more time to wrangle than a good one, so the more bad bug reports, the longer you need to wrangle them and the less time you have to elaborate, inform, help or thank the reporters. Bad bug reports do make me hesitantly find ways to say more with less, which some reporters might find rude. It still isn't very obvious to me when I might behave badly in someone else's view, but I do respond to such concerns when they are raised (and take even more time to either defend my view or to change the Summary around or to request more specific information or output pertaining to a changed description).
> Any ideas what we could do on our end to improve the situation?
Well, apart from explaining technical stuff[1] as in the example above, we could obviously explain how our developers work, how much most of them get payed for doing that, inform users of our services what they can and cannot expect to get. jer [1] We have a couple of pretty good guides[2][3] about using bugzilla.g.o, but I suspect bug reporters who report badly tend to be the same people who skip a three page lecture on how to report bugs. [2] <> the official thing, as referred to on <>. [3] <> the guide for bug-wranglers slash project page.


Subject Author
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo Sebastian Pipping <sping@g.o>